Business as Identity: The Mental Health of Entrepreneurs
Entrepreneurs are viewed as value creators, disruptors, innovators and fearless go-getters. How does do these kinds of narratives and identities impact the inner and outer world of entrepreneurs? In this episode, our guest, Raj Mariwala discusses why and how entrepreneurs struggle with mental health, and the holistic support systems that they can and need to develop to ensure well-being and resilience for themselves.
Source: Unsplash | Artist : Claudio Schwarz
Subscribe & Listen: Spotify | Google Podcasts | Apple Podcasts
About Raj Mariwala
Pic: Raj Mariwala
Raj Mariwala is Director of Mariwala Health Initiative, (MHI), a funding agency that provides a range of resources and support to organisations working in mental health interventions and advocacy. Raj serves as board advisor for the Global Mental Health Action Network, and for the Lancet Commission on Stigma and Discrimination, as well as being a board member of the NGO, Parcham, that works with adolescent girls.
Resources
Mental Health Toolkit for Entrepreneurs, Ascent Foundation and Mariwala Health Initiative
Mental Well Being of Next Generation Entrepreneurs, August 2021, Raj Mariwala
Study on “Entrepreneurial Well-Being: Wearing Many Hats”, November 2019, Ascent Foundation and Mariwala Health Initiative
Study: “Business as Identity: Mental Health of Entrepreneurs”, November 2020, Mariwala Health Initiative
Resource Guide for “COVID-19 and Mental Health” , Mariwala Health Initiative
Transcript
Sowmya 00:08
Hello, and welcome to The WorkWise Pod, a weekly podcast in which your hosts, Deepak Menon and Sujatha Rao talk about how we can make our workplaces better, not just more productive, efficient and impactful, but also fairer, more empathetic and fulfilling. In today's episode, Deepak and Sujatha are talking to Raj Mariwala, about the unique mental health challenges faced by entrepreneurs, and how they can ensure their own well-being and resilience. A quick heads up - the audio isn't the best in a few spots. Thank you so much for bearing with us. Stay tuned.
Sujatha 00:49
Today we are talking about an issue that is widely prevalent, but quite often ignored - the mental health of entrepreneurs. There is increasing recognition that this is an issue of concern. And talking about it is perhaps an important step for bringing awareness to both the issue as well as possible action steps that entrepreneurs, leaders and organizations can take to address it.
Deepak 01:21
And very appropriately, the Mariwala Health Institute has come out with a research study called "Business as Identity : Mental Health of Entrepreneurs" in September 2020, which looks closely at this issue. And the report is fascinating, because it not only looks at the broader issue of mental health, but also the underlying causes, the belief systems, the mindsets about mental health, but also about entrepreneurship. It also highlights some support systems that could make this issue more manageable.
Sujatha 01:53
And to talk to us about this today, we have with us Raj Mariwala. Raj is Director Mariwala Health Institute, a mental health advocacy and funding organization with a focus on marginalized communities. Raj has also been involved with livelihood related work at Mercy Corps International. Welcome, Raj, to the podcast.
Raj 02:18
Thank you so much. Excited for this podcast today.
Sujatha 02:22
Raj, I want to start off by asking you to tell us a little bit about the report. Right? How did the report come to be? What were some of the triggers for the study itself, and perhaps some highlights of the report.
Raj 02:37
So we started talking about entrepreneurial mental health pretty early on, I would say at least six to eight months before we did the study for the report. And we said it's really important, simply because there exists so much literature on the entrepreneurial mindset, on entrepreneurs per se. There are schools that study entrepreneurship. But there was very/ there was precious little about entrepreneurial mental health. And even more so in the Indian context. Everything that we found was a little more Eurocentric. In the Indian context, of course, the only type of entrepreneur referenced was the startup. So we knew that this is an issue. Particularly I would say in light of conversations around workplace mental health. How do you discuss this when you don't discuss the mental health of those leading that workplace? So that was one. And of course, a sister concern, I would say, or an allied organization, which is Ascent, which runs peer groups for entrepreneurs, we had access to them. And this was a conversation between MHI and Ascent initially. And that's when we decided that we would talk to a few more entrepreneurs within Ascent, have a few detailed, in depth discussions with them. And then plan or I would say, co design a study on entrepreneurial mental health. I wonder whether either of you ever came across such a study in this context? Or what made you delve into this further?
Deepak 04:30
I haven't come across a study which is what when we were preparing for a different podcast, we came across this podcast and we were reading and we will get fascinated with what that's such a study existed already because some you know someone will hear about this issue. Then some sad news about some entrepreneurs committing suicide, something that happens comes by, right? But to find that report itself was serendipitous for us. But also the quality of the report was something that took us pleasantly by surprise. Which is when we reached out to you and say, Okay, how did you come to the report in the first place,
Raj 05:05
and like I said, Ascent had trust groups. And we did have some in depth discussions with some entrepreneurs. Now, all these, I want to put this caveat out there that all of the entrepreneurs that we spoke to were growth ready. And so it was definitely not the startup space but people who had already been working maybe for some time, or were running an established business. Now in the Indian context, I think, particularly when it comes to family run businesses. And you know, there is this linkage between entrepreneurship and caste. That was important. And so that's what we did. After we spoke to these entrepreneurs in depth, we started to design a survey that we would eventually share with the 400+ members of the Ascent cohort. Now what happened about two days after we shared the survey was an unfortunate incident in Bangalore, with the founder of Cafe Coffee Day. I think that made it all the more pressing, we had quite a large participation from the Ascent cohort because of it, unfortunately, and the whole idea is, of course, to prevent such incidents from happening. So what we did was we shared the survey with them which they could complete at their leisure. We also took a few pains to test drive this survey with some entrepreneurs beforehand. And keeping in mind, the time constraints, I think all of them said, Do not give us a survey, that's more than 12 minutes to fill out. So, in particular, I think at the outset, I would say, co designing this survey with entrepreneurs was actually critical to getting the information that we did get and getting the level of participation that we got. So in terms of the actual survey, and findings, at least half of the respondents said that they experienced anxiety, confusion, irritability, and frustration. They also said that they felt anxious, often, or very often. Now, while I can get into details about what the unique stressors they faced were, and if I have to phrase unique stressors are the sorts of stresses that are absolutely linked to their situation, to their context. So without getting into those for now, I'll just talk about I think the larger point for us in this was entrepreneurs are using only personal coping mechanisms to deal with this sort of thing on a more on and off basis. Now, when I say personal coping mechanisms, it means that these were all largely inward, largely isolationist. And so that's a matter of concern, because we need to have a range of methods with which to deal with mental health.
Deepak 08:27
Really glad you pointed out that the entrepreneurs who had participated in the survey of growth ready and also in India, entrepreneurship is, till very recently, very linked to a certain caste, certain communities certain, you know, family groups, but now that's expanding. So, so one of the things you also mentioned about the multiple identities of entrepreneurs, some of them paradoxical, and what happens when these multiple identities conflict, and then their stresses, their resistance, their vulnerability, the facades, and how, you know, in that context, how does the idea of entrepreneur who's an entrepreneur itself increases, it expands? So what's your take on that?
Raj 09:23
Well, I mean, I, you are, right. The caste and entrepreneurship equation is expanding. But from, you know, where I'm sitting and germane to this study is that there is some linkage with letting family down having certain performance to do with costs that did come out, especially in family run businesses, and that has some very real consequences for entrepreneurs who may have chosen to take a big bet, to do something different to change around the family business, and then have the responsibility all of a sudden of XYZ family or caste members who then say, why did you do this? And what have you done to this legacy? So that's, you know where I'm coming from in terms of stressors, but you are absolutely right, the conversation of entrepreneurs, around entrepreneurs, the definition of entrepreneurs, is changing. And, of course, I'm the last one to say that, how do you have these border walls between someone who is making a business out of their home, someone who's selling fish on the street, but for the purposes of this conversation, of course, we will segment it in this way to look at only growth ready entrepreneurs. But I do think that there is a linkage to caste and entrepreneurship, that affects mental health, particularly in terms of upholding certain amount of pride or profit and keeping that going, as it were.
Sujatha 11:09
And this issue of identities that we're sort of exploring now. It's fascinating. I mean, we've sort of looked at caste and traditional family identities, but there are other intersectionalities like gender, right, and we do know, you know, the women in workplaces in general, but women in leadership roles and women entrepreneurs, you know, there are these multiple, Deepak used the word paradoxes, but this conflicting spaces that women entrepreneurs, also would navigate. In the study itself, Raj, were there both men and women in the study, and was there anything in particular about women entrepreneurs and mental health that that came out?
Raj 12:02
Absolutely. So in the study, we did try to be as intersectional as possible. We did look at axes of gender, of religion. We didn't have enough information to look at the axes around ability, which is telling in and of itself. But we did talk to approximately 10% of women. And there were some different findings that were bifurcated by genders. And women entrepreneurs did face different types of pressures, especially when it came to the stressors. So even though we had 10% women, which was actually, which is the kind of composition of the cohort, we were unable to do any sort of quantitative analysis of the same, but it did show up in terms of the different stressors that they faced, such as disagreements with different employees managing the leadership role. So there was some differences in between men and women. The status of ownership, how to manage their leadership, all of those came out as maybe a little more grave topics for women to negotiate and navigate.
Sujatha 13:44
Right. These multiple, I mean, the report says business as identity. But what I'm hearing you say is that there are these multiple identities that influence the entrepreneur in perhaps different ways. While still the entrepreneur as the businessperson carries with it certain underlying norms of how to be, what should I do, that perhaps influences this mental state, right, of their well being, maybe disproportionately as compared to some of these other ones, although they might add to it or, you know, pull it in different directions?
Raj 14:31
Yes. So that's exactly what I'm saying. And I'm going to take a little bit of a divergence and talk to you about what happened when we were planning this study. So when we were planning it, and when I was thinking about it, I'm a huge fan of etymology. So I said, "actually, let me look up this word in history and how it's been used, where it came from. You know, in what context did people use it" . And of course, It comes from French. And it translates to "meaning to do something or to undertake", and the ways that it was being used, were being referred to as someone who undertakes a business venture but some more meaning was added to the word. Because the very first economist to use the word was in, I think, the 18th century. And he said, "the willingness to bear personal financial risk". A little later on, a few more entrepreneurs worked at it and they said that it's people who create value, it's people who move resources out of less productive areas. It's. also they said, people who assume financial risk and actively participate in day to day operations of a business. A little later on, they said, they are disruptive people, they are innovators, they find the blank spots and work on those. So you can see that there is a narrative being created around this identity. There's also an, what I think we see today is the lion-izing or maybe the hero worship of certain entrepreneurs. And we know that there are, I hope it's not amiss of me to say this, but cults really built around them. We can look at Steve Jobs, you can look at Elon Musk. And there's a reason for that. And it I think it's if you trace the history back, it's interesting to see how it's been used. And it's been particularly economists who have added to this narrative, but it does exist that entrepreneurs are these intrepid, fearless people who take risk to find the opportunities, who go for it. Now, what does that do to an entrepreneur who faces a vulnerability? How does that narrative affect you? And so that was our starting point for this whole thing about business as identity, entrepreneurship as identity.
Deepak 17:17
It's interesting that you brought out the idea of lionized because as a failed entrepreneur, I thought I felt was a pure loneliness, you know, in its very naked form. Because A, you've been expected to be the next Steve Jobs, okay. And then if you're failing, you need to be resilient. And then you don't know where to go between this lionization and this resilience, you're stuck, you know, and you feel terribly lonely, and you're right. Especially come not coming from a business family, you know, everybody's just waiting to say, you know, I told you, so don't do this. So my predominant feeling was of loneliness. What's your experience of the research?
Raj 18:00
I would say that you're absolutely bang on. And that's why I worry when all the entrepreneurs we spoke to used primarily inward looking mechanisms, because it can be incredibly, socially isolating to be an entrepreneur, maybe even more so if you've taken a non-traditional path to entrepreneurship, or you've changed around the family business. And then you worry about telling the people that you love around you about your worries, as you said, they may say "we told you so", "what have you done?" I think there's not only loneliness, but there will be constant frustration, the whole idea of shame that one is unable to do it. And then linked to that is the idea that not only do you have to deal with this on your own, and maybe you don't have people that in the workplace that you can share this with, you can’t share this at home, not only do you have to deal with that, but you have to have the optics of having it together, lest your employees or your team loses confidence in you, lest your investors lose confidence in you. So you know, I don't want to forget that juxtaposition. The optics, I think affects a lot of people.
Sujatha 19:13
Yeah, I think this phrase that you use, Raj, "optics of illusion", I think is particularly powerful. So if I see I've donned on the mantle of fearless leader and willing to be open about mental health that I'm experiencing, it signals to the organization that mental health is not something that you talk about. right? And my own frailties, if I conceal that it signals again to employees and people in the organization that don't bring your whole self to the organization, right, I mean, leave aside your fears, your anxieties and stresses. Do you think in some sense, it creates this reinforcing sort of dysfunctional cycle of not looking at mental health in organizations overall?
Raj 20:01
I do think it is critical, if you're looking at workplace mental health, to talk about the leader's approach to mental health. Simply because they will be setting the tone. No matter what the policies are on paper, if you are unable to advocate for yourself, when you're feeling vulnerable, how do you expect anyone who is at the lower end of the power equation from you to do the same? And that I think that has ramifications for how you work, how you may interact with your colleagues. And that could lead to of course, you know, the entrepreneurs in the study we spoke to said that they experienced massive amounts of frustration and irritability. Now, it's a, there's a pretty high chance that you may take this out on your colleagues. Even if it's not explicitly irritation, you may be a little less forgiving, you may be more impatient. So there is a high chance that this has entered workplace dynamics anyway. And then when you do that, we're also setting an example for the people who report directly to you. It's not possible that there haven't been famous, really successful entrepreneurs who haven't lived with bipolar, yet we don't have those stories. And that's very telling. It is about the optics, it is about showing that one is not vulnerable, and what happens to my stakeholders, if I say that I live with bipolar, right, and so in fact, it would be very disruptive in the way that entrepreneurs are held to be disruptive in good ways. And I think it would work or it would be amazing, but we don't have those stories. And the reason for that is the whole optics, the whole inability, or maybe the presumed inability to share.
Sujatha 22:03
So much of the narrative that gets played out in the business space, reflecting broader societal mindsets and belief systems about talking about mental health, right? I mean, we run to the doctor when we have a backache. But we seem so reluctant to talk to an expert, when you know, the pain inside our head continues for an extended period of time. So in some sense, it sort of also brings us back to these ideas of broader support systems. Right, Deepak? I mean, how does one begin to think about that as well?
Deepak 22:38
Yeah. In your report, what have entrepreneurs already employed? And what should they have employed more effectively?
Raj 22:46
So in the report, we found that some of the coping mechanisms they've used were reading, cycling, meditation, listening to music, sports, all of these things. Very few people said that I reached out and spoke to a family member, I reached out and spoke to a professional. It was more hiking, listening to music, checking out, not taking work home at points. And I think linked to that is, of course, the assumption that the leader of the enterprise is automatically going to be resilient. Right? And partly, it stems from, you know, a finding that they have no identity, or they grapple to find identities outside of the business. If my business fails, then who am I? And so you're really invested in upholding this, because it's very deeply intrinsically linked, that's the other thing that we found, to your sense of self. And so when it's so deeply linked to your sense of self, your sense of who I am, what does the idea of failure mean? And then if I, on the side, I take the trajectories that businesses face, X amount of businesses only are successful. But also the idea that you do need failure in order to learn how to do better. How do we how do we reconcile all of these things?
Deepak 24:19
In the business world it's almost cliched that, you know, you have to start several businesses before one succeeds, you know, and the identity as a entrepreneur is valid. And it's still reinforcing but that one failure doesn't stick that much. In the social nonprofit space, entrepreneurship has an identity, it gets very linked to the communities you're working with. So it's almost like feeling, abandoning them if things don't work out as a social entrepreneur.
Sujatha 24:51
Yeah, I mean, I was thinking, when Raj was talking both about you know, she started off with the loneliness and, uh, you know, the inward journey of coping with it. And this, "who am I" question, right, that entrepreneurs are anyway facing. I think, in the social world, the "Who am I" is partly, you know, we already have this little cloak of you know what traditional leadership has always been a little bit of superhero, right -"I'm going to go and do something about the world, and its imperfections". But then you've also taken on this slightly added burden of being a savior to, you know, Masses, which is extraordinarily, nobody should have to carry that mantle or that mindset. And I think that makes it even more difficult to let go of a bad idea, because not all, you know, you go in with a possible solution, but not all solutions are the right solutions, right. And so when I feel, Deepak, I mean, I, you know, I've been, you know, a social entrepreneur, myself, and so much of who you are, is now attached to the solution that you have designed, right. And it's so difficult to disentangle yourself from that solution, because you, you can still say, "I still want to address the problem, but only if I accept the failure of that solution". Right? It's an enormous mental burden to carry. And I'm really drawn to what Raj was saying about inward-looking support systems, as you know, compared to outward-looking support systems. Right. Raj, how do you see this in, I mean, I know the study is focused on the India. And so I'd like to, you know, ask you, you know, to talk about that. What are these other support systems that we have in India? Do we have these in India? Perhaps, maybe that can be the first you know, sort of question. And then maybe, even if these systems were there, would they be willing to take them on? Right? Would we be willing to accept them?
Raj 26:57
So in India, like I said, currently doing these personal coping strategies. Of course, we do have in India, strong family networks, we do have mental health professionals that are accessible to entrepreneurs, such as the ones that we are discussing here today, at least. And I think, possibly one of the things that we have a little less in India is some more peer learning platforms. But essentially, I think the kinds of barriers to reaching out to family, the barriers to reaching out to peers or to colleagues need to be addressed. So while there is potential for having support systems, I think we need to build the capacity of our entrepreneurs to actually ask for support or to be able to share. Some of that can be worked on really easily by equipping entrepreneurs to be peers. We'd be actually addressing this, and I feel very strongly about this, to be actually addressing this at the B school level. There is nothing there and why is that? I mean, we need to start really at that point, if we are going to make a change, and create better systems for workplace mental health altogether. I mean, if there's any chance of influencing this narrative, and the way that it's being dealt with, in a massive manner, it has to be done at the B-schools, as well. And I really want to go beyond this whole idea of just reaching out to mental health professionals. Because while that is one of the support systems, I think peer support is incredibly powerful, simply because it allows you to talk to someone who has experienced these similar lived experiences. And that can be extremely powerful, it lies outside of the clinical, it may not have as much stigma, but we do need to work on this so that entrepreneurs are okay to reach out to each other. And I'm sure, like Ascent, there may be other groups who are doing this. But we do need to build some systems and some tools as well as some discourse around entrepreneurial mental health. And I suspect, one would have to say that it's your mental health that may affect the running of the organization. that may, even though I hate to say this, affect the bottom line. I don't believe in such an approach but I feel that one we have to employ this sort of framing, really, to bring home the relevance and the importance of this topic,
Deepak 30:01
Very interesting. I was just thinking that these people who support entrepreneurs with money with mentoring; venture capitalists, social venture capitalists, foundations - is there a space to get them to get started on such a platform?
Raj 30:17
I would think that we need to look at a lot of the kind of pivotal stakeholders. So I do believe this is an interesting way to go. I only think that it can make such systems stronger, if anything else, so that we don't get to a dangerous stage where the entrepreneurs face complete burnout, or is unable to really go into work and actually work. While they may be showing signs that yes, I'm at work and all of that, but, you know, it could be a struggle. So I do think that such pivotal stakeholders are important. And they should be starting these conversations and looking at better support. As well as I think visiblizing mental health and visiblizing these struggles, can be really game changing, can be very powerful.
Deepak 31:15
And what would your advice be for entrepreneurs; meaning 98% of startups fail, no? So you can assume that most people are feeling pressure in some form of the other. So what would your advice to entrepreneurs be?
Raj 31:29
One is, I would say question false narratives about entrepreneurs having to be inspirational, aspirational, symbolic of perseverance, drive, passion, I mean, drive and passion can tire you out. And it can be very demanding on your life, there is an impact on your personal life on relationships. And it is important for you to know that you are constantly operating under the influence of business and social stressors at all times. And if I just picked one example, and you had asked me this, I think earlier on - female entrepreneurs - they have issues about managing the domestic front, capably, as well as achieving in their business. Now, while they may have people to help them on the domestic front, they may have family members who are supportive, it's also linked to the image, right, that "I must be a good mother, I must be a good wife, I am responsible for my family's well-being" - now that is a social stressor. So this pressure to succeed manifests differently for different people. But more importantly, I would say that, it is very critical to set up systems to look after mental health, it cannot just be at the pull of a trigger. It's important to be prepared for it and to know that there are plenty of things outside your context that really you have no control over whatsoever that are going to affect your mental health. And you know, you were talking about social entrepreneurs, and about how hard it is particularly because they have lofty ideals or societal change that they are looking at. But working with oppression, documenting oppression, that is immense emotional labor, particularly for some social entrepreneurs. Look at the sort of emotional labor you are putting in. And, you know, there is a certain amount of self awareness, to know and to realize that there are some things that you just may not be able to change. And then the idea is to figure out the ways in which you can best cope with those.
Sujatha 34:00
So any thoughts on how does one sort of move from looking at it as a, like you said, trigger points, right, or, you know, I'm upset versus embedding it perhaps in more long term, continuous process of support and reflection.
Raj 34:17
So I think it's easy for me to illustrate with an example. So I'll start off with an example. And the easiest example is my own. So as someone who runs a mental health organization, obviously, the mental health at the workplace is critical. And how do we do it? Of course, we have some systems in place, we have a mental health allowance that each employee can take for whatever they need. They don't need to provide any proofs of say which mental health professional they're going through. So that's a monthly allowance, but beyond that, beyond all the policies, how are you actually dictating that culture, and that has to come from the top. So when it comes to me, I go to a therapist, I've been going for many years, that allows me to know what my triggers are, that allows me to possibly prepare if I know that there's going to be something anxiety provoking, it does allow me to prepare. It allows me to be able to articulate and advocate for myself as well. So I have no problem in telling the team that as a person who lives with anxiety, I find it very hard to do videos, if you need me to do videos, you will have to tell me two weeks ahead of time, I will have to prepare and get ready. This is an example - I do live with anxiety, and I have used this in workplaces. But if I'm to create systems where we are able to tell each other that "I'm too anxious to do the sort of work, I will need x, y, and z support from you", I think you have to build support structures at those levels, you would have to build a support structure at home, you'd have to build support structures elsewhere, maybe with peers,
Deepak 36:03
From an organization design point of view, what are the things that an entrepreneur could do? Some of the examples that Raj said is fascinating. You know, the monthly allowance is a very practical thing that that a lot of organizations can do; asking for help is something that, that knowing your trigger points, then asking for support asking for help makes it very commonplace, very acceptable. So if the leader can do that, can exhibit that then also invites other people to do it as well within the organization. But from a design point of view, organization design point of view, what could be created?
Raj 36:38
So I think in terms of organizational design, if I may, I think we tend to advocate for looking at three things. One is the ecosystem, the second is the organization and third is the individual. So one is understanding the ecosystem, identifying the unique stressors that may be organizations that are engaged in similar work experience. As founders, or as organization leadership, acknowledging these sorts of threats, stressors, and putting systems in place to identify and manage the stress. In terms of the organization, understanding the culture, that what you say or do contributes to part of the culture that can lead to stress amongst your employees and others, then, are there any aspects of your culture that you know you want to change? And I think inclusion is part of that you do need to design. And I say this for mental health, I will also say it for workplace mental health. If you design for whoever's at the margins, you're going to cover everyone, if you design for the center, you're going to take a very long time to reach the margin. So if you're thinking only about your average, upper caste, Hindu cis-heterosexual man working in your workplace, your systems are going to take a very long time to catch up to having trans persons at the workplace. Right. So that's the other thing. And then finally, what are the policies you can provide as support? And I think the wellbeing allowance possibly falls into that.
Sujatha 37:47
Raj, I think, you know, your articulation of the ecosystem, the organization, and the individual is just wonderfully sharp, right? Because it is true that you know, we do focus on individuals in the organization, but the ecosystem in which the organization work has its own special triggers, right? I mean, what we call industry specific triggers, and so on and so forth. And I completely agree with you in terms of design, right, that if we can design for the margins, to a large extent, we've got most people covered, as opposed to designing for, you know, what you would call the stereotypical mainstream, right? And then say, oh, how else do we acknowledge it? So I think that's very, very powerful.
Deepak 38:58
One idea that came is that maybe an intermediate structure not saying that this is a structure that I agree with, but intermediate structure is to just have someone whose role is of a chief health officer, you know, at a CXO level. So that these are constantly pushed in the organization because this becomes another one of the things that needs to be designed for the CEO and you know, a push comes to shove, you know how it works, right? So the bottom line will take over every Monday morning, rather than asking, okay, how are you feeling today? You know? If somebody is given the responsibility in the organization as an intermediate structure, I wonder if that might be a solution for some organizations.
Raj 39:39
I think it might be a solution, but I do think it requires work from multiple people and it cannot sit at the desk of just one person.
Deepak 39:50
Absolutely. How do you get that thing moving in many organizations, so the more subtle it is, the less chances that it will scale?
Raj 40:00
Yes, yes, this is true. I mean, we do have to make very conscious and very tangible steps towards doing this otherwise, I don't think we're going to get very far. And again, conscious, tangible efforts also mean visiblization, which in and itself is powerful, you know, currently, because we operate in the atmosphere of stigma,
Sujatha 40:27
How do you make something that is truly embeds what it's meant to in terms of the core philosophy of being well in organizations and the willingness to talk about it in the first place, rather than a symbolic thing of, you know, a chief health officer who comes once in a while. But I think it's absolutely fascinating, Raj. Any, any last thoughts or comments, Raj that you want to leave our listeners with?
Raj 40:55
I would want to say that in India in specific, I feel that we haven't gotten very far in the conversation on what we would call reasonable accommodations. And that's a policy question. But of course, it is a larger question around how we look at ability, and how narrowly it's defined, and performance. And so we do need to really talk more about reasonable accommodations simply because if nothing else is going to convince you it is going to make work a little more streamlined and more consistent. And I would want to add one more thing. There's a lot of conversation around diversity and inclusion. And I don't think that it can be as neatly separated as we are doing right now. Diversity and Inclusion is one conversation, workplace mental health is another. They are intrinsically linked, in my opinion.
Deepak 41:56
Yeah, I think I'm still figuring out as an entrepreneur, what do I do when I'm feeling these issues? One is I could do some of the steps as are mentioned, both internally, both external support family members, but also to design organization in such a way that these conversations are practiced. But also in the end, for me, the biggest takeaway is to kill the hero, kill me as a hero, meaning you don't need that in the organization. So if I'm no longer the hero in the organization, then it allows me to be a normal human being working on something, and then it just invites other people to be the same.
Sujatha 42:35
I think for me, today's conversation has just reinforced the need for us to have this conversation repeatedly. Right, again, and again and again, I think Raj pointed it out when she said, if I understand that this is an issue that you are facing, I can do something about it, rather than very quickly come and jump to the conclusion that you don't have the ability to do it right, or you're unwilling, you know? I don't, I don't pre-judge your motivation. I also found it very reassuring in today's conversation, the permission that everybody has to be human and vulnerable. Just give ourselves that permission, because I think most of the times entrepreneurs don't do that and that's a reinforcing cycle as well. But I think if we can create a community that starts talking about it in the first place, and then talking about systems that are available for support, and then use that knowledge to recreate and redesign organizations such that I think Raj mentioned this, you know, we don't treat inclusion as separate from mental health. They are one and the same. I think there's pathways there. But maybe the first step is just to acknowledge that, you know, all of this is human, and it applies to everybody, including the entrepreneur. Yeah, that's my that's my big takeaway from the day. Thank you, Raj, so much for coming to the podcast today, sharing with us, not just the report itself, which I think is important and we will certainly have the report on the website and encourage people to read through the report, but also drawing on both the personal and the professional in bringing together this, you know, this conversation around mental health. And while we've spoken about entrepreneurs, I think it applies for everybody, you know whether you are an entrepreneur or not. The world of work is so omnipresent in our lives today, that I think it's something that all of us should engage with. So thank you so much for coming to the podcast and sharing your experience and knowledge with us.
Raj 44:47
Thank you so much for having me and it's been absolutely wonderful chatting with you both and answering or chatting about your questions that have been really thought-provoking.
Deepak 44:59
Thank you, Raj. Thank you for triggering this conversation on mental health. Hopefully this is not the last time we have a topic of this importance on our podcast.
Sowmya 45:14
Thank you for listening. We hope you enjoyed that. Next week, Deepak and Sujatha are talking to Balaji Pasumarthy about how entrepreneurs can liberate themselves by creating trusting work cultures that let's them focus on the bigger picture. You will find the resources referred to in this episode in our show notes and more information at our website, www.workwisepod.com. We'd love to hear from you. Comment on the website or write to us at hello@workwisepod.com. Credits go to Sanjali Ranjan for the cover art and Derek Clegg for the intro and outro music. Today's episode was mixed, produced and edited by me, Sowmya Karun. Don't forget to subscribe to The WorkWise Pod on your favorite podcasting platform. We'll see you next week.
