From Ill-being to WellBeing at the Workplace: With Shashi Nair
The Covid - 19 pandemic has put mental health and wellbeing front and center for organisations. New research indicates that employees are experiencing mental stress, burnout and anxiety at work at levels that are unprecedented. Even before the pandemic, most people were actively disengaged at work. According to the Gallup 2019 Poll, 85% of workplace were disengaged at work.
In this episode, our guest Shashi Nair explains how employees can enhance their wellbeing and engagement at work, through small everyday practices, and how organisations can enable individuals and teams to be open, engaged, transparent, trusting and authentic at work.
Source: Unsplash | Artist : Unknown
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About Shashi Nair
Mr. Shashi Nair is interested in wellness for himself and others. He is a seeker, practitioner, and teacher in inward journeys of personal mastery, and outward journeys of systemic change in complex systems. An alumnus of IIT Madras and IIM Bangalore, Shashi has 27 years of experience in the corporate sector in organisations like L&T, and NIIT. Of this, 14 years was as a CEO, scaling an IT Training and Consultancy from its infancy. He has over 15 years of experience in the social sector, particularly school education systems, having worked in Azim Premji Foundation and Azim Premji University.
Currently, Shashi is a Founding Director of Viridus Social Impact Solutions, a Trustee of Kiirti Trust and a co-initiator of the Well-Being Movement.
Shashi can be reached at shashi.viridus@gmail.com
Resources
SMARP: 8 Employee Engagement Statistics you need to know | Infographic
Shawn Achor: The happy secret to better work | TED Talk
The Atlas of Emotions: An interactive tool for identifying, labelling and responding to emotions
Gallup: State of the Global Workplace | Report
Fredric Laloux: Reinventing Organizations | Book
Transcript
Sowmya 00:11
Hello everyone and welcome to The Workwise Pod, a weekly podcast in which your hosts Sujatha Rao and Deepak Menon talk about how we can make our workplaces more fair, just and fulfilling, while still getting big results and meeting those KPIs. In today's introductory episode, Deepak and Sujatha Rao are talking to Shashi Nair about how employees and organisations can improve both engagement and well being at work. Shashi is a systems thinker, practitioner and teacher of well-being, an alumnus of IIT Madras and IIM Bangalore. Shashi has 27 years of experience in the corporate sector, and 13 years in the social sector. Stay tuned.
Sujatha 00:56
Hi, Deepak. This is our first podcast. And it's so relevant that we are starting with a subject that everyone is concerned about right now, our health and well being. This pandemic has really focused people's attention on physical, emotional and mental well being. And I think it's not just because of the virus, but also because it has caused such dramatic changes to the way we work. People are struggling with work home life balance, you know, they feel disengaged from work. There's an enormous level of burnout, anxiety and stress. And so many people seem to be struggling to bring some balance and positivity back into their lives, isn't it?
Deepak 01:43
That's right Sujatha, the pandemic may have spotlighted these issues. But these issues have always been at work. In fact, the Gallup poll conducted a year after year has consistently shown that 85% of employees are disengaged at work. Over the last decades, people have been talking about poor work life balance about feeling stressed, overwhelmed at work, even as they were spending a lot more time at
Sujatha 02:10
85% disengagement is, is really quite high. And organisations cannot ignore the issue of employee well being anymore. In fact, the conversation today is beginning to shift to how organisations can make wellbeing a central or core part of their organisational strategy itself. And not just as a add on employee wellness programme.
Deepak 02:38
Yeah, that's true Sujatha. As a leader, I need to first acknowledge that employee well being has become central to how my organisation works and behaves. But I have other competing pressures as well, from customers, from bosses, from investors from government officials. Sometimes I just know, I don't know where to start from
Sujatha 02:58
Yeah. So, I think this is a good time to bring Shashi into the conversation and help us deep dive into the idea of well being in the organisation. So Shashi, How real is this problem?
Shashi 03:12
So I think the problem is a very real problem. I think that the way organisations are functioning at the moment, there's a huge amount of stress that people are feeling. There is this issue of constantly looming deadlines, there's a huge amount of performance pleasure, there's a lot of interdependence, which means if I don't play my part, somebody else gets affected, I let down the team. And to add to all of this, there is the issue of concern about job security, the long hours that we need to put in and things like that. So I think a lot of the problems are coming because of the way work is structured. And I completely agree that we haven't really got a handle on how do we focus on well being. And I think part of the problem is that for some people, the idea of employee well being seems to be in opposition to an organisational well being. So it is like something extra that you need to do, which is going to cost you a lot more. And it's not seen as something which can actually help the organisation in a number of ways.
Sujatha 04:21
So Sashi, then is well being the opposite of ill-being
Shashi 04:26
Actually, not exactly the thing is that we use certain words as opposites but they're not really opposite. Love and hate, for example, we use is opposite, but the opposite of I love you is that I don't love you. It's not that I hate you. The opposite of I hate you is I don't hate you. So there's a continuum from ill being to a place where the issues that you face in the workplace, such as the great amounts of stress that you face are removed, but that doesn't bring you into a space of well being. well being is a space where you experienced a great deal of positivity is you feel That you're in safe and healthy relationships. There's a very high positive energy that you have. And you're filled with, you know, hope, joy, optimism, you feel that your career is something that's really fulfilling, it's rewarding you enjoy spending time in your career. So wellbeing is something that's experienced in the moment, moment by moment, we experienced this idea of well being. So if that's the way how well being is different from a being so just by removing ill being you don't actually get to well being that's an important point to look at.
Deepak 05:31
That is interesting Shashi. So it seems to me that there are many dimensions and characteristics of wellbeing, Could you expand on that a bit more?
Shashi 05:39
So, I think wellbeing is something that's fairly holistic, and it has a number of dimensions. So there are things to do with you know, physical well being the things to do with our own psychological well being our own state of mind, our social well being our ability to relate with one another, our sort of intellectual well being where we feel confident that we understand and know our domain of work or study, we are able to do it very effectively. It includes our sense of spiritual well being, a sense of connectedness with, you know, humankind, with other beings with the planet with nature. It includes economic well being where we have clarity about what is it that we really need, and are able to ensure that we have adequate in order to be able to meet those needs, as well as our environmental well being our ability to breathe clean air, have clean water, stay connected to nature, and so on, so forth. And all of these have an impact in terms of well being at the workspace, if I, for example, am sleep deprived, it affects my physical well being if I'm stressed, or if I have poor relationships with people, or if I feel a lack of confidence in being able to execute my work effectively, if I feel that I'm not getting enough to be able to cover my real needs, these are all things that affect me, my inability to breathe, clean air, affects my ability to participate in work. So well being is as well rounded thing which has all of these dimensions, and all of them have a relationship with my ability to show up and work productively, and contribute to and be part of a happy healthy atmosphere at work.
Sujatha 07:24
Right. So when we say that we need to begin to think about actively creating well being at work for employees and organisation How can we begin to think about this? And how do you think we can begin to move along the spectrum of you know, sort of removing Ill, Ill being and moving towards more Welby?
Shashi 07:50
So I think first, it's good to take a look at what does it mean, when we start looking at well being in the organisation? Sort of before getting to? How does one do this? Right? So the question is, how does the organisation thrive and flourish because if individuals living in a state of well being leads to the organisation declining, then that's not a healthy thing. So it has to happen in a way that the organisation itself thrives, right, and that has to do with for one, making sure that the employees are happy, satisfied, they see a collective sense of purpose, a sense of meaning they enjoy coming together, it's a pleasure working together, you sort of enjoy each other's accomplishments. And participating in work is something that's fun to be, you operate from trust and respect, from a place of autonomy, responsibility, emotional pride, and ownership in the organisation, and so on. But for this to happen, it's important to figure out how can the organisation create such a conducive environment in which the organisation also tries and flourishes? It's not an either or kind of a situation.
Deepak 08:59
So how do we design organisations that enable well being for the organisation itself, as well as for the employees?
Shashi 09:07
So actually looking at individual well being in the organisation, and the well being of the organisation itself is somewhat easier. What is far more difficult is looking at simultaneously the well being of society, and the well being of ecology that things are ecologically appropriate and sustainable, or regenerative as the case may be. It very much depends on what is the nature of your business. So let me start from the outside because that's a larger picture. And the more alignment we can build around the larger picture, the easier it becomes to build alignment towards the smaller pictures. Yeah. So if you want to look at how your organisation can run in such a way that it takes into account, let's say, environmental well being, I think the first place is to start with your mission. What is it that your organisation is trying to do? And in trying to do that, what is the impact it has with respect to the environment. So for example, I work in the wellbeing space itself. So working in the well being space, it's much easier for me to be able to align the purpose of the organisation to the environment. But imagine I was in the aerospace industry instead, in the aerospace industry, by default, you're creating some kind of an environment key impact, so it becomes a lot more difficult. So I have to ask myself, what am I doing in the aerospace industry, that actually has some beneficial impact with respect to the environment, or at least minimises the kind of harm that can be done to the environment. So if my work happens to be in the space of, let's say, reducing emissions, then I am helping from the environmental point of view. So the further out you go the far more difficult it becomes. And you have to start at the level of the mission and look at a kind of mission which can actually work at the environmental level, or for that matter, even at the, you know, human societal level. And for me, I think what's important is making it directional, as long as the direction is right and we are constantly working on it, we will get there sometime. So otherwise, it looks like such a daunting task that we may not even get started and that will be a terrible shame.
Sujatha 11:23
Yes, it is challenging. And leaders often shy away from looking at this because it is complex. And there is fear that they may be taking on something very difficult. When forget ecological well being leaders struggle to even focus on employee well being in their organisations.
Deepak 11:42
Yeah, so assuming that we concentrate on individual team and organisation well being for the moment, how can organisations get going on the well being journey, what can lead us to write
Shashi 11:53
when an organisation operates in a particular way, it has cost implications. And those cost implications can shift the value propositions which exist out there, in terms of the customers you're going to serve. And therefore there is a risk that you may actually have customers walking away from you, because they would rather vote with their feet, if they find that somebody else is providing a service, which at a much better value point to them, even though that other organisation may not be particularly bothered about well being. So the fundamental issue comes down to getting your business model, right. And that is a very creative process of trying to understand and reimagine, and reposition what you can do in the business so as to be able to meet the external needs. I think you started off by talking about the ROI engagement levels, for sure, there is a huge difference in the quality of what people produce when they are much more deeply engaged in the organisation. So that's why I'm saying there's a sort of back and forth between these things. The question then becomes, what is it that you can do at the level of the employees in the organisation so that they can feel far more fulfilled? And while you're doing that, how can you also make sure that you're not losing out in a way that your organisation ceases to exist? Because of what you have done? So I think that's the larger principle, you know, how do we keep these in balance? And how do you keep them in dynamic balance? And how do you constantly improve the opportunities for individual well being? And how does that individual wellbeing contribute to organisational productivity? For example, a huge amount of productivity increase can take place when individuals are happy and fulfilled. And it's a matter of taking the incremental steps in that direction. So sashi, what are these incremental steps that organisations could take? I think the most important thing to understand about well being is well being is a state of being, which exists moment to moment, moment to moment. So it's actually what we do in the moment which results in our well being. Yeah. So in an organisation, what is it that we are doing moment to moment? And are those the kinds of things that people enjoy in terms of the nature of work that they do, in terms of the relationships that they have with other people, Okay, and let's take this incremental approach that we are where we are, we need to start building it systematically, little by little, not with a huge game plan of things, but try something, see what works. And as it works, stabilise that, put it into place, go to the next step, and so on. It just starts by having open trusting conversations with people to ask, how can we make our work more enjoyable? How can we relate to one another better? What does it mean for you? And I think just asking that question and hearing what people have to say, and listening with an intent to see are there any creative alternatives that start emerging is a great place to start So firstly,
Deepak 15:00
what kind of resources are out there for people to lean on as they commenced their wellbeing journey,
Shashi 15:05
there is tonnes of material around on well being, I think there's a lot of material around in the space of positive psychology which is worth looking at. Because that's where it moves away from the lack of a well being to moving in the direction of well being. I think it's really worthwhile for people in organisations to spend some time and these don't need to be anything expensive, they can actually be sometimes even free resources which are available, but spend some time trying to understand why are they in the state in which they are? Or why are we in the state in which they are. And it's not always easy to pick up, because things may have always been like this. And therefore we think this is okay. It's only when you start experiencing these positive states that you actually realise how positive estate you can actually be in, and how much your energy can shift, and how much you will be able to work almost tirelessly in doing stuff that really matters a great deal to you. So I would say that spending time trying to begin to understand what are our habit patterns from which we are coming? How does it affect our state of happiness? How does it state affect other people's state of you know, well being, because a lot of what happens in organisations is interpersonal as well. And what I do can affect somebody else. And what somebody else does can affect me. So the more that I'm able to begin to understand what is my way of looking at the world? And how can changing my way of looking at the world make a difference. You see a lot of what we do, our own assumptions about happiness are largely based around an if then formula, if I study hard, I will get good grades, if I get good grades, I'll get a good college, if I get good, good, good college, I'll get a good job. If I work hard on that I'll get a promotion, if I get a promotion, I'll buy a bigger house. It's all built on if then. And our assumption is that our well being is always in the future for efforts that they put in now. And I think this is a myth which is worth busting. It goes back to the idea that wellbeing is something moment to moment, how am I feeling moment to moment? How am I feeling?
Sujatha 17:17
You know, having listened to the importance of well being and in some sense, also the concept of well being that you've been talking about, what do you think would be one or two things that our listeners could keep in mind, as they begin to move in this journey towards well being for themselves, you know, their families and societies, but also for the organisation, maybe two or three things that she that you would recommend as the starting point for remembrance as well as action.
Shashi 17:49
So I think I would say that the very first thing at an individual level is to recognise that we actually have a choice about our state of well being, we are not as helpless as we sometimes feel. And that spending time in trying to understand why are we in states of a being and what can we do in order to move in states of well being, I think is the first place because the moment we do that at an individual level, we are settled we are come, we are centred, and we start positive ripples going out from us at the individual level. And that will affect not only ourselves and our families, but also our workplaces. At the level of workplace, I just like to say that it is something that bringing about a shift in the well being as a play at a place of work is something that is doable. It doesn't have to be something that we take on as a mega project, we can take it incrementally in steps, they can make it possible for people to enjoy this journey. And a large part of it depends on the person who wants to take this initiative, learning to be received as the person who is open, transparent, trustworthy, authentic, wants to see positive things happening. And to hold a space for people in which people can be invited to think about these ideas about well being and explore what is it that they can practically do in small steps at this point in time to change their situation, while not also compromising where the organisation needs to be and where it needs to get headed. And to recognise that when you get onto a journey like this. It's just a matter of continuously engaging with it. It's not one massive blueprint that we are talking about, but continuous steps. For me, I think these are the two most important things that can be done in order to be able to move on the wellbeing journey.
Sujatha 19:44
Yeah, I can see how individually we can move on these steps incrementally and that organisations can pay attention to this. So are there some design principles or models that can help organisations do this more consciously? And move into that space of wellbeing.
Shashi 20:04
So as we look at the question of how organisations can move into a space of well being, one model, I think it can be quite useful is the model of TEAL organisations and I suggest to organisations for a certain reasons, one is that TEAL organisations are built around certain set of core values. So, if wellbeing is something that the organisation values, let's say we're talking about a 10 Person organisation 20 Person organisation, right? If this group of people collectively believes that well being of individuals and the organisation as a whole is important, then embracing the TEAL model can actually be quite useful, because what then it happens is that each individual in the organisation has a great deal of autonomy to do what they think is right, as long as they follow the advice process. And in the advice process. If I'm following the advice process, I'm expected to consult all those who will get affected by my decisions and actions, and then choose to do what makes sense to me. After taking consideration all of the advice that we received, including saying that I'm not going to follow some of the advice that I received. But the moment I do that, and I had the freedom to choose what to follow and what not to follow, I've also got to take responsibility for my actions. And of course, it's understood in TEAL organisations, that mistakes will be made, but we have to learn from them along the way. So if I do this, I can actually do this in a framework in which I care for my own well being as well as the well being of others, and that is informing the choices that I make as I move forward. So if you see it that way, the culture of the organisation setting can be extremely energising for people with the freedom the flexibility the caring in order to be able to do what matters most
Deepak 21:51
Sujata, you also been mentioning about Teal organisations, what are teal organisations?
Sujatha 21:56
Yeah, Deepak, Frederic Laloux's work on Teal organisations has been quite influential. So, you know teal itself is this really beautiful blue green colour and Laloux in fact uses colours to show the evolution of both individual societies but also organisations across these different stages of consciousness and maturity right. So, for example, you know societies start in the Laloux's TEAL model, with the colour red in terms of sort of 'Might is Right'. And then as thought breakthroughs occur, such as for example, division of labour and a clear command structure, at different stage or state of consciousness in organisations and societies come into being so from red for example, we moved into the amber organisation, where order and discipline is seen as the key for example, you know, we've got the army which is traditionally representative of that kind of organisational thinking and structure. And then from that hierarchy machine like organising principle, as people begin to seek more innovation and creativity organisations move into what Lalu calls the orange state and from that orange state, when human beings begin to seek collaboration and belongingness, Laloux says that the organisation moves into what he calls the green stage right, where there is a sense of the organisation as a family. Now, the stage of evolution of the organisation as well as society is in that sense, after that green stage is what is referred to as Teal. And this is the space where, or this is the movement or these consciousness where the organisation is viewed as a living organism, which has essentially three characteristics, a) self management, b) wholeness, and c) evolutionary purpose. So these three elements, the desire for self management, the desire to bring wholeness into work, and to seek evolutionary purpose. These three things help to orient the organisation and the people in it, towards realising their true purpose and potential. And this is not just in work right in the orgspace, but actually in exploring what is the purpose of work itself. So it's a very, very interesting model of designing organisations that I think is worth exploring.
Deepak 24:36
Fascinating Sujatha. I've also been very intrigued with organisation models that move away from hierarchical to decentralised and democratic structures. TEAL organisations appear to be one such model and as Shashi explained to organisations are better positioned to create a culture of well being in the organisation. Also, I've been fascinated with how we develop as human beings and leaders within organisations, we often learn about management and leadership by first observing our line managers, especially when we were managers for the first time. For example, when I was a manager for the first time, my biggest concern was proving myself as a manager. and wellbeing, frankly, was not a top priority.
Sujatha 25:19
That's actually true for me as well, Deepak, you know, that was not a priority for me. And I don't remember thinking about it consciously at all. And looking back, you know, I wish I had that advice given to me, you know, from someone more experienced, because, you know, first time managers often needs guidance or ideas that are, you know, far more revolutionary and purposeful, rather than just ideas that are familiar, Shashi, you know, thinking back to when you were a first time manager, is there one or two pieces of advice that you wish you had received.
Shashi 25:59
So, as a first time manager, I was really, you know, looking forward to being able to achieve a lot, and I didn't have any idea about the complexities of working with other people. So I started with my own idea of what I wanted to do and what needed to happen. And what I really wished is that somebody had helped me understand that my own goals and objectives would have been significantly further, if I had been much more ready to listen to others carefully, try and understand the sense of what they were saying, and try and get into generative conversations as to how to build as a group of people, we could build on each other's ideas in order to get to a better place, if I had known that something like that was possible. And if I had known how to acquire those skills and capabilities, because there is a certain amount of skill building that is required over there, and sometimes it is counter intuitive to build that skill. But if I had had that advice, if I taken that seriously, if I had built those skills, I think I would have been able to to be far more effective. I think that the cost to my organisation, the cost to my relationships, or the cost to myself would have all come down significantly. It's actually when you know how to do these things in a very natural way, you start producing results significantly faster. And it's amazing how much faster you can be at getting to results. So if I had known that it really made a big difference. And if I believed it at that time, by the way, because I may not have believed it. If somebody had told me these things.
Deepak 27:42
Thank you for Actually, that's pretty good advice for the first time manager. So she I really, really enjoyed this conversation. We're only beginning to explore well being and what organisations can do to make well being a core part of their strategic intent. And we may need many more such conversations to really understand what all of us need to do and but thank you for coming on workwise port and thank you for sharing your knowledge, passion and wisdom on well being. We look forward to speaking to you again, and hopefully at some time invited back on workplace.
Sujatha 28:13
Thank you, Sasha.
Sowmya 28:14
Thank you. Thank you for listening. We hope you enjoyed that. Next week, Deepak and Sujatha are talking Holacracies -what they are and how they can change the way organisations are led and managed. You'll find the resources referred to in the episode in the show notes, and more information at our website www.workwisepod.com. We'd love to hear from you. Comment on our website or write to us at hello@workwisepod.com
Credits go to Sandra Lee Ranjan for the cover art and Derek Cleg for the intro and outro music. Today's episode was produced and edited by me -Sowmya Karun. Don't forget to subscribe to the workplace for on your favourite podcasting platform. And we'll see you next week.
