Oh No! Not another meeting.
Organisations spend an enormous amount of their entire time only on meetings, yet most meetings don’t serve the organisation’s purpose. In this episode, Sahana Chattopadhyay takes us through the concept of ‘Generative conversations’ and how this can be a powerful tool to turn dysfunctional meetings into breakthrough thinking and authentic conversations at work.
Source: Unsplash | Artist : Richard Horvath
Subscribe & Listen: Spotify | Google Podcasts | Apple Podcasts
About Sahana Chattopadhyay
Pic: Sahana Chattopadhyay
Sahana Chattopadhyay is a writer, speaker, coach, and facilitator.
She spent 18 + years in diverse and globally distributed organizations working at the intersection of Technology, Human Potential, Organizational Learning, Complexity, and Emergence.
She partners with organizations to build capacities for emergent and ongoing learning, sense-making, collaboration, deep listening and generative dialogues to help thrive in uncertain, ambiguous, and complex times.
Resources
Some Data on Meetings: https://www.themuse.com/advice/how-much-time-do-we-spend-in-meetings-hint-its-scary
Holding Space for Generative Conversations by Sahana Chattopadhyay published in Age of Emergence
Otto Scharmer on The Four Levels of Listening: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLfXpRkVZaI&t=102s
Liberating Structures: https://www.liberatingstructures.com/
Liberating Structures App: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.holisticon.app.ls&hl=en_IN&gl=US
Laszlo Bock’s Book: https://www.workrules.net/
Transcript
Sowmya 00:09
Hello, everyone and welcome to The WorkWise Pod, a weekly podcast in which your hosts, Deepak Menon and Sujatha Rao, talk about how we can make our workplaces better, not just more productive, efficient and impactful, but also fairer, more empathetic and fulfilling. In today's episode, Deepak and Sujatha are talking to Sahana Chattopadhyay about that dreaded cross so many of us bear: the workplace meeting. Sahana is a writer, speaker, coach and facilitator. She builds capacities on collaboration, deep listening and generative dialogues. A quick heads up, the audio in this episode isn't the best in some spots. So apologies in advance, and thank you for bearing with us. Stay tuned.
Deepak 01:01
Hi, this is Deepak Menon.
Sujatha 01:03
Hi, this is Sujatha Rao. Deepak, how often have you heard this - "Oh, no! not another meeting!"- right?
Deepak 01:11
All the time, Sujatha. And I don't think it's just you and me. The negative emotions attached with meetings are legendary in organizations. I have known people to hide before, you know, the dreaded meeting time starts.
Sujatha 01:27
And I think we have research that suggests that organizations seem to be spending an enormous amount of time only on meetings. So many studies suggest that organizations often spend up to a quarter of their entire organizational time on meetings, and senior executives seem to be spending half of their entire workday just for meetings. I mean, this is such an enormous energy and resource spent, isn't it?
Deepak 01:55
And there are some common patterns that we've witnessed in meetings. A few powerful people doing most of the talking. The others- silent, bored, disengaged. It's crazy.
Sujatha 02:08
And well, being silent and bored is you know, definitely not very helpful. But meetings can often disintegrate into debates and personal attacks and accusations and snide remarks. These can be of course, wasteful, but they can be really harmful as well.
Deepak 02:25
So, Sahana, it might be a good time for you to step in. Why do you think people hate meetings so much?
Sahana 02:31
Having come from organizations, corporates, multinational myself, I can vouch for the fact that people do hate meetings. So you know, in response to your question, I'm going to ask a couple of questions myself, for all of us to think about - why are meetings held? Who really needs those meetings? And who benefits from those meetings? Primarily, there are three reasons why organizations hold meetings - to share information, to manage resources, or some kind of resource allocation and to come up with an action plan for a project or some kind of work. And the core reason that it should be held, that is for creative sense making gets left by the wayside. So people come in knowing that a few people will drive the meeting, a few people will tell others what to do, how to get it done, and leave with a task list, which may or might may not get done, or might not even be something that people feel aligned with. So over a period of time, most meetings have degenerated into a form of "busyness", where people feel by attending meetings, they are really doing some kind of work, but in reality, it is non productive, non creative. And I would even say some very, very frustrating times. And another core reason why people hate meetings, I feel are that they are mostly consensus and compromise driven. Honest conflicts are suppressed. Authentic conversations are not welcome. And people feel scared very often to express what they truly mean and truly intend. So it becomes a very superficial, compromise driven, consensus driven and a few voice driven sessions.
Deepak 04:59
You know, I've always believed that you can observe an organization system at work by observing meetings.
Sahana 05:05
Whenever five or more people gather in a room for a meeting, you can actually observe the organization's culture and you can actually understand the ethos that drives that organization. And I'll give you two examples. One I've read, and one I have been a part of. So if you attend any Google meeting, and this is something I've read in Google's book, written by Laszlo Bock, who was Google's HR head. In a Google meeting, everyone expresses their opinion. In fact, dissent is the norm. If people are not expressing dissent, then something is dreadfully wrong. Okay. And that's what is welcome. And I personally have been part of an organization where meetings were for absolute, authentic brainstorming, co creation, and collaboration. And I've experienced those kinds of meetings and conversations. But in majority of the cases, what is at play, like you had started out by saying, is hierarchy, power, command and control, and the positional authority of a few individuals. And if you see, that meeting reflects the overarching culture of an organization, and if you sit in on a meeting, and as an OD person/ professional, I've done that multiple times as part of my organization diagnosis. You can actually see who is the power center. Who are the people who are favored, who are the people whose voices are left out, and who are the people who are trying to express but are unable to, and whose voices even when expressed, goes unheard, not because people are deaf, but because I'm just not willing to listen to certain opinions, thoughts or voices. So yes, meetings are a great litmus test for an organization's culture.
Sujatha 07:21
It's really fascinating thing when one looks at meetings as this sort of lens into almost the soul of the organization, right. And we know that meetings are dysfunctional. It's rare that, you know, the examples that we're speaking about, Sahana, almost seem to be the exception, right, rather than the rule with which meetings are held. So there must be a better way of thinking about and running meetings. So what are these better ways? What is this better way of thinking about, you know, starting from the purpose of meeting to actually running a meeting?
Sahana 07:59
Absolutely, Sujatha. And I love that expression that meetings are the lens into the soul of an organization. They truly are. And definitely, there are better ways to run meetings. And I'm not only talking about Google, or you know, a few other organizations, which might just have less of an hierarchy and more of a networked wirearchy driven culture. I'm actually talking about any organization, any teams, any communities, who can make their meetings, what I call generative. And generative meetings are characterized by a few, I would say qualities, a few, you know, indicators. They are truly democratic. They employ co creative processes. Managers or leaders and anyone who is in a position of authority actually act as facilitators. They create a safe space for people's thoughts, feelings and honest opinions to be heard. Every voice is included. So generative meetings are inclusive, and welcome diversity of opinion. And most important, they welcome the whole person, they welcome authenticity, not only dissent. When I say authenticity, they welcome honest, human emotions, human feelings, and expressions and of creativity and co creation that comes from every one's, you know, true being. So, I would say generative meetings can definitely be designed and can become an organizational practice.
Deepak 08:31
A couple of things that I thought were very interesting. And for me a bit counter intuitive. I have always had this imagination that consensus is good. But you very early said that consensus could be problematic.
Sahana 10:14
Yes, and I'm glad you picked up on that, Deepak. You know, consensus brings harmony, consensus means everyone is in agreement, and so on and so forth. However, from my personal experience, and from all the work and research and facilitators work I have done consensus is typically coming from a place of power, where a few people's opinion gets taken up. And everyone else says yes to it, even when it is not coming from a place of honesty. Consensus often ends up coming from a place of compromise. And what I am saying is that in a generative meeting, consensus doesn't happen. Because in a generative meeting, it is a safe space; people can express dissent, conflict, very diverse and differing opinions wholeheartedly. And what comes out of all of that diversity is what is known as creative conflict; not the negative way we approach conflict but creative conflict, out of which, really something new, something very different gets born; that is co creation. And co creation is always greater than the sum of the parts. Consensus is almost like the lowest common denominator, it is actually a little less, even less than some of the parts. But co creation is always greater than the sum of the parts, you get something that did not exist before.
Deepak 12:08
How do we get there? How do you transform our current meetings to generative ones?
Sahana 12:13
So first, let me at the outset say, it doesn't happen overnight. It is not a silver bullet formula where you go in and do two things and your meetings become generative? No, it comes really from a place of inner awareness, inner state of being, and also from the intention that as facilitators, we hold about how do we want to conduct this meeting. What do we want? Why are we conducting this meeting? You know, the paradigm of "power over" has to go. And what they need to bring into the meeting is what we call "power with". And share that power in the room in the relationship that exists in that room, and act as facilitators, who are holding a safe space for a truly generative meeting to happen. Yes, having said that, not only does it require inner work, there are also very robust frameworks, tools, methods, and processes that can be used, and that I have personally used to create that atmosphere where people feel safe to step in, and where the meeting can be much more democratic, much more co creative, truly exciting, and truly meaningful.
Deepak 13:46
So one question that has come into my mind, which is- Why bother? It's so much work? Some of the meetings that I'm doing are already paying me some dividends, they may not be the big dividend, but it's still paying me dividends. Why do I need to change?Why do I need to change?
Sahana 14:02
Let me, you know, for our reflection, ask a few counter questions. Who is benefiting from keeping the meetings the way they are being run now? Who is benefiting from the status quo? Is the organization benefiting from people's energy and passion and creativity by maintaining the status quo? Most importantly, in these times of absolute disruption, and you know, uncertainty, ambiguity, complexity, chaos that COVID has thrown us into, can we even bear to think about going on and on attending meetings, that sap our energy, drain our passion, that feels soulless, and that does not ignite any inspiration?
Deepak 15:02
I am doubtful, Sahana. I'm rather skeptical of why would people in power change any of these things? When you mean of organization, why would people in power change any of these things? Even with the issue of COVID? Without the issue of COVID? Why would anybody change?
Sahana 15:21
People in power will not want to change. If something is paying me dividends, why should I change? But they are going to be forced to change, by the circumstances, by the unexpectedness of the events that have become a tsunami now, because when you are hit by so much of complexity, so much of chaos, so much of ambiguity, power is not going to help you solve it. What will help is actually tapping into the collective wisdom, what I call sensemaking, the collective intelligence that exists in that organization, and in any community, any teams; to really tap into that; and that cannot be unlocked through power. That needs to be unlocked by sharing power through facilitation, by creating safe spaces. So, just the complexity and volatility, the uncertainty is going to force organizations to unlock that potential that exists; to unlock sense making.
Sujatha 16:38
Yeah, and I think interestingly, the circumstances we find ourselves today is perhaps highlighting it. But I think there is what you would call power fatigue with leaders. You hear leaders talk about the burden of power, right? Because power is always this, this two-edged sort of sword. And the the freedom that comes from moving from this, "I control", "I will lead" to "We are in this together", right? Let's adapt ourselves to, to Sahana mentioned, collective intelligence. But also this fundamental belief that Superman is fictional, right? We don't have Supermen Superwomen today. What we do have is the power of a network of individuals, right, who bring their understanding and wisdom into this space. So leaders are looking for better ways, more empowering ways of working, which actually involves letting go of power. In essence, it goes back to that, you know, traditional maxim- we used to say we used to say knowledge holding is power, until it changed and it became knowledge sharing is power. I think with power, with leaders, we're sort of getting into that space, because a lot of the conversations today are not just "should we", but "how should we".
Sahana 18:12
I think you've summarized it beautifully. Leaders are humans. They are suffering from from power fatigue. And I would also add to that, that they are suffering from a paradigm mismatch. So you know, the 19th century industrial era paradigm, starting with Frederick Taylor and all, that have put leaders on a pedestal, people with power and people with control and command over organizations and everything else who will tell people what to do. And then everyone else just follows orders. That worked when the world was somewhat stable and predictable. Today, it's no longer going to work. And the power lies in the network, the power lies in knowledge sharing. And to reach that point, I think there are three-four skills very fundamental for leaders to to be able to even, you know, it's like how should we let go of power? It's almost like now I've been given this position, this role, this authority and it comes with power, but I want to let go of it but how?
Sujatha 19:19
Two things, Sahana. One is, are there particular skills that one should begin to hone if we are moving towards creating such generative meetings? And what should be some of the first things that we should actually start by doing, right?
Sahana 19:35
So a couple of things. One is of course, letting go of an expert mindset, or what we call a fixed mindset, and embracing a growth mindset. Growth Mindset automatically comes with curiosity, learning agility, the ability to ask and stay with questions and most importantly, simply letting go of the notion that I, as a leader must have all the answers and the solutions. I don't. And I don't need to. I just need to be able to ask the right questions and hold space for people, and the network to come up with what is needed. Second is, I would say letting go of the need to tell, the need to direct and the need to give instructions. And really learning to listen. Otto Scharmer repeatedly, and I love his Theory U course, because of its focus on generative listening and generative conversations. So there are four levels of generative listening. That is so core, so fundamental to leadership. At level one, we just listen, to respond. We are listening from our preconceived mindset. And there already I'm, even before I'm listening, I already know the answer. At level two, I'm just listening for new facts. Okay, so you've told me two things I didn't know, great. At level three, I'm listening with empathy. I'm trying to be in your shoes and listening from your point of view. But at level four, I'm completely open. I'm listening with an open mind, open heart and open will without any judgment or preconceived notions. And that takes practice, practice and practice and listening. Learning to listen like that turns you into a truly powerful, in a different sense, a truly powerful leader for the 21st century's uncertain depths.
Sujatha 22:00
What are one, or maybe two things that I can begin to do to start this off, right? I mean, you started off by saying, this is not an overnight thing, it's going to take time. And it's, you know, it's a deep rooted belief system change, accompanied by structural and process changes as well, right. I can't run the meetings the way I have been running in the past, I have to do something differently. So what is perhaps one or two things that I could begin, as I build my own, you know, knowledge and skills, and I, you know, collectively help people around me understand how to move towards a generative meetings?
Sahana 22:40
The first thing is, to begin with an authentic check-in. We don't even know what check-ins are in our meetings, right? So just beginning, and it takes no more than two to three minutes per person. And I, my personal experience, from many meetings, I have realized when we spend, say, often one hour entire meeting, even 15 minutes on authentic check-in, the rest of the 45 minutes are amazing, absolutely mind-blowingly different. One is that. Second, there are three - four processes that can be used directly in any meeting whatsoever, from Liberating Structures, processes, like 1-2-4-all, and you know, many others. And there is actually an app that we facilitators use to run meetings differently. So these are very concrete, very practical hands-on tools, and doesn't require a huge amount of you know, it clearly doesn't require a huge amount of knowledge, prior knowledge. It's just learning the tools and using it in the moment. It's more like changing tiny habits, one habit at a time. But of course, again, it begins with an inner shift and the desire to be different, that intention to do things differently.
Deepak 24:07
Sahana, can you elaborate on these tools a bit - 1-4-all, Liberating Structures, and this app that facilitators use?
Sahana 24:17
Yeah. Sure, Deepak. First of all, let me say that, you know, for Liberating Structures, there is a beautiful app available. I have it on my Android phone. There is also a Liberating Structures website that if people just type in liberating structures, they can go and look up. There are in total 33 Liberating Structures, processes, very beautifully described in their website, as well as in the app. And third, if people really are keen on facilitation and are hardcore facilitators, they might even want to buy the book, Liberating Structures, which has all the details of the processes, how they are to be used when they are to be used and so on. Okay. I personally have of course, like all facilitators, we have our personal favorites. So for me in the Liberating Structure space, I use the 1-2-4-all process quite a bit. Primarily because it spans the entire gamut of one, which is self reflection on a particular topic. So let's take a topic, for example, that, how do we make meetings more engaging? Let's say that's the topic of a discussion, okay. And there are about 20 people in the room, and then you break up people into groups of four each. The first step is an individual reflects on their own, what they think about making meetings engaging, okay? And you might give them a minute or two. Second step is where with another person, they share with each other, what each have regarding making meetings engaging, okay. And then these two people, and another two people get together and they consolidate their points. There will be some new points, there will be some common points and they consolidate that, okay. So that is 1-2-4. And then one person from each group shares with the whole room, what are the key points of that group. Now, you see, what happens is, so we have gone from individual sensemaking, to sharing that knowledge with the whole room. Okay, now, this can be done with, if you are doing it in a real session, in a real world that is face to face, you can do it with 25-30-40 people with a couple of facilitators. All you need is to give people clear instructions, have people be able to articulate clearly at the end, what came out from each of those group discussions. So the whole room knows, what are the key themes. Right. So that is 1-2-4-all. There is another process that I love in liberating structures, which is called Triz. T-R-I-Z. Again, I will take the same topic. It's a very simple topic. I mean, obviously, corporations, organizations have much more complex topics to discuss, for which these themes work really well, as in these processes work really well. How TRIZ works is you actually ask the room, in pairs, or individually, mostly in pairs, to come up with the exact opposite. So for example, if the theme is how to make a meeting engaging, the pair has to come up with everything, each pair in the room has to come up with everything that can make a meeting really really dull, dead and boring; every single thing. So basically exactly the opposite of the theme. Okay, then you get together in groups of four or six, and you share what happened, what are the themes that you came up with, or core points. And at the end, you will realize when those points are either white boarded, or called out, that many of the things that you're saying, which are exactly the opposite of the output that you want, actually happen in the real world. What has surprisingly happened again, and again and again, that when people do this exercise, there's a lot of laughter and you know, a lot of giggling, and there's a lot of Yeah, that you know, that recognition that when they actually do this exercise, they realize that a lot of the things that they know, shouldn't happen actually happen in their organizations. So even when they know it is making a meeting meaningless, and they have noted it down, then there is this, oh, yeah, we do it, we actually do it. So that recognition is there of things that are done, which should not be done. Whereas if you ask people to, you know, sort of write down things that they feel they shouldn't do they get defensive. Everyone does, right. If I feel I'm being you know, my mistakes are meant to be held up. But when it is done in this manner, it becomes a really joyful exercise. It's fun. And yet there is this lot of recognition coming up saying, Oh, yeah, we actually do that. We actually do that. And while our intention is to get just the opposite result, we actually end up doing this, hence we get, you know, meaningless, dull meetings. So I love these processes. I would really encourage people, even team leaders, project managers, senior managers, leaders, to go through these processes, get someone to help them. If a facilitator is available, great; if not, the processes are quite self explanatory. Pretty simple to follow once you sort of, you know, because it's they're written down when to use, how to use and why should that process be used. So everything is crystal clear. It just takes a little bit of application and practice to, you know, implement that. They make meetings effective. They make communication effective. They democratize processes. They sort of, you know, control the whole. Usually in meetings, a few loud voices are heard and not everyone's voices. So those dangers and say, organizational challenges get eliminated. If people start using some of these processes on a daily basis. They are simple, they are literally free to use, they're available freely. All you need to do is apply in practice
Deepak 30:50
Amazing. And can these tools be also used in online meetings?
Sahana 30:52
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I have been using them in online meetings for the last eight months, and not that we had much of a choice, right. But yes, and what I've been doing is and what many facilitators around the globe, have been doing is they've been using other online platforms that are freely available, for example, AnswerGarden, MURAL, Mentimeter. I think Mentimeter has really shot into prominence because it syncs well with Microsoft Teams. And many organizations are using Microsoft Teams is my belief. I love AnswerGarden. AnswerGarden is an online platform. So you have answergarden.ch/create. And I can share the link with you later. You go to AnswerGarden. And there is already a topic created there by the facilitator. How do you make meetings engaging? And the AnswerGarden is setup. All you need to do is enter your ideas around how to make meetings engaging that you all have discussed. Either a word or a phrase and enter it into AnswerGarden. And people will, as people keep entering their ideas in AnswerGarden, what happens is the AnswerGarden creates a word cloud. Okay, automatically as you keep right typing. Say for example, I type a word or phrases and there is a character limit you can put. Let's say there's a character limit of 40 or 50 characters. Within that you have to type your word or phrase and you keep entering. So four or five people are typing and entering. And within 30 seconds, you have a beautiful word cloud, capturing everyone's thoughts around the topic. You can take a screen grab of the word cloud, you can download it, you can put it in your presentation, you can share it with your leaders and say hey, you know what, this is the discussion we had and within half an hour these are the themes and core key points that we came up with. So AnswerGarden, I love using AnswerGarden. Mentimeter works similarly. And MURAL is actually an idea creation board. It's like a digital workspace for visual collaboration. And it's cloud based. It has virtual whiteboards, it's a little more complex to use. But once you get used to using it, and there are quite a few videos about how to use MURAL. If you are really into planning and ideating, working with a distributed team virtually for a long time, working from home, each people wherever they are, then MURAL really helps to set things in perspective. Another planning tool that I love to use is of course Trello. It is I guess very popular with many, many project teams. And I love using that as well. And Trello is very lightweight. Again, cloud based, works with perfectly well with a number of apps. And so basically what I try to do as a facilitator, as a coach, mentor, I try to not really replicate the offline world online, but I try not to make a zoom meeting just about staring at a screen. I mean, when you have people sitting, you know, everyone is rushed, stressed, worked out completely, like, you know, the the whole environment is stressful. If they're simply sitting and listening, it doesn't capture attention, or help in retention. But when you have people actually engaging in the meeting through these various platforms, that really helps not only in engagement, but it also helps for people to feel that, you know, it's "Oh my god, it's not another Zoom meeting". So that Zoom overload, which is really happening and I completely understand it. "Oh my god, one more Zoom meeting. Let me just switch, switch off the video and you know, keep doing whatever else I'm doing." So it prevents that kind of disengagement, keeps meetings short, crisp, to the point and really purposeful, any kind of discussion.
Deepak 32:54
Sahana, you had mentioned check-in? What really is a check-in?
Sahana 35:26
So a check-in is where we invite each person in that room, each participant, to authentically express what is happening to them in that moment. And what a check-in does is, it helps me, you, Sujatha, anyone who's in the room, to go within. And check in with myself. How am I feeling? How am I in this moment being? Am I feeling nervous? Am I feeling irritated? Am I feeling impatient? Am I feeling just purposeless? So it gives everyone that pause to go within and then to reflect what is within openly in a shared space where everyone is holding space for you. The foundational rule of check-in is no one will interrupt you. No one will question you after a check-in. You are saying what is within your heart and soul exactly the way you want to say it. No questions. No reasons required. No judgement, nothing. Everyone else just holds space and silence.
Deepak 36:53
I wish I had known about check-ins when I was first made manager. We could have spent the first five to seven minutes of the meeting, focusing on how people are and then move to the agenda of the meeting. It would have ensured that all of us are authentically present in the meeting. You know, check-ins are really powerful. I wish I had known it before.
Sujatha 37:17
So I'm going to ask you this, Sahana. What advice would you have liked to have received when you were a first time manager? Right? Something that looking back now, you sort of wish that you had known.
Sahana 37:36
So many, but I wish I really wish and this is something I've talked about quite often myself that when I became a manager or leading a large team, I just wish someone had told me that it's okay to say, "I don't know". It's okay to say, "I really need help. I'm lost." That it's okay to say "I am trying very hard. But guys, you know what? I think I've messed up." I wish someone had told me that it makes a leader so much more humane and really brings that deeper connection. When you express vulnerability, you get trust in return. When leaders express not knowing, they get complete, I would say, honesty in return. And that's how safe spaces get created. And very slightly, maybe in an off beat mode. You know what I'm reminded of, very offbeat? I don't know if y'all have seen the movie 'Hum Hain Rahi Pyaar Ke". It's an old Aamir Khan movie, really old. Very old. Okay, when he was this young Aamir Khan, slightly stupid Aamir Khan. But you know what stayed with me from that movie is he's trying his best to control, to manufacture whatever and he's missing his deadlines. He knows he's going to lose. And then he comes to his workers, who are these tailors and the stitching women, and he tells them, "I can't pay your salary. I don't know what to do. And we have to sell this factory because I've made a mess. And I'm in debt." Everyone rises to support him, everyone. I mean, it's a movie, it ends on a happy note with romance and everything. But I think that defining moment of someone who was in charge coming to say, "I don't know, I've messed up. I'm lost." Everyone rises and I think that's exactly what leaders need to shed. This fear of appearing lost and out of control, because that is where leaders become human beings. And not this positional authority constructed by an MBA college and organization and society, and the poor human being inside that leader is lost. Even he or she has forgotten. Who am I? Truly? Who am I?
Sujatha 40:28
What a lovely anecdote, Sahana! I mean, it really brings alive the idea of the leader being vulnerable and open, and actually willing to say, I don't know. I think Bollywood has given us many such management insights. Maybe we should give them some more credit?
Deepak 40:46
Yeah! And the insights for me from this conversation have been that ultimately generative meetings are the spaces that can be designed, can be constructed, where people feel authentic. They listen powerfully. They participate wholeheartedly, in conversation that are purpose driven, and the power is not "power over" but "power with".
Sujatha 41:14
And we also know that there are tools, methods and processes that one can use to create such generative meeting spaces. Thank you so much, Sahana. It was a lovely conversation.
Sahana 41:26
And deep deep thanks to both of you for not only thinking of this topic, but for really letting me speak about what I'm passionate about. What really is my, you know, my deep inspiration. So I think y'all have really beautifully exemplified generative listening. So thank you for that.
Deepak 41:49
Thank you, Sahana.
Sowmya 41:56
Thank you for listening. We hope you enjoyed that. Next week, Deepak and Sujatha are talking to Sugata Chatterjee about the incredible power of communities in an increasingly disconnected workplace. You'll find the resources referred to in this episode in the show notes with more information at our website, www.workwisepod.com. We'd love to hear from you. Comment on the website or write to us at hello@workwisepod.com. Credits go to Anjali Ranjan for the cover art and Derek Clegg for the intro and outro music. Today's episode was mixed, produced and edited by me Sowmya Karun. Don't forget to subscribe to The WorkWise Pod on your favorite podcasting platform. We'll see you next week.
Deepak 42:43
That is very nerdy, Sahana, that on Saturday morning, the excitement for all of us is to talk about generative meetings.
