Leadership Ascent and Biological Distress: Opening the Black Box of Menopause at Work
In this episode, Deepak, Sujatha and Amoolya speak to Reena Dayal, a leadership development coach with more than 2 decades of experience in international corporate HR, who has been coaching mid-career women using insights from neuroscience. Reena addresses a topic that we tend to tiptoe around, menopause! Specifically, about what happens in the world of work when a woman, typically in her 40s and 50s, on her way to leadership positions, is beset by menopause.
Is it a death knell to her ambitious aspirations, or an inflection point, which can give rise to positive transformation and determine the next phase of her life? They discuss how menopause is defined, the diverse experiences of women going through it, and about what workplaces are doing and can do about this.
Image Credit: Javier Allegue Baros @ Unsplash
Subscribe & Listen: Spotify | Apple Podcasts
About Reena Dayal
Pic: Reena Dayal
Reena is an Applied Neuroscience and Leadership Development Coach with 22+ yrs international corporate HR experience and 10+ years as an Entrepreneur. Since she transitioned into coaching she has actively invested in her skills and is an ICF certified IPEC coach, Master Practitioner of ELl, Gallup certified coach and an alumni of MIT Sloan's Neuroscience for Business. For the past decade her company has been coaching Board members, CEOs, CXOs, C-Suite, Founders and their teams at scale up stage of business or career. In 2022 she initiated a project to explore how insights from the world of applied neuroscience could support mid-life working women who were exiting the workforce, many of whom were experiencing menopause. Her company ran a survey, hosted 'safe space' discussions and a four part webinar series. The learnings and insights generated have directly inputted to the quality of coaching she offers mid life women today.
Resources
www.reenadayal.com - Reena’s website
Write to Reena at reena@thecollaborators.org
https://www.nichd.nih.gov/health/topics/menopause/more_information/resources A list of resources to papers, handouts, writings by groups that study menopause (mainly health related)
https://www.acas.org.uk/menopause-at-work a starting point to discussions about what employers can do about menopause at the workplace
https://indianmenopausesociety.org/ For folks in India, a society you can join to
Transcript
SPEAKERS
Sujatha, Deepak, Reena, Amoolya
Deepak
Good afternoon, everyone. Today is October 18, which is celebrated world over as world menopause day to raise awareness about menopause and the support women need during this important life stage. For many women, menopause happens at a time when they are actually stepping into leadership roles and juggling between work and life and family commitments, etc. But despite the physical, emotional and the mental challenges menopause brings, menopause is still not talked much at work, so what we are doing today is we are having a conversation about leadership, ascent and menopause, and as usual, very lucky to be working with Sujatha, Rao, friend, collaborator, and Amoolya, who's helping us with the conversation today, but also would be looking at questions posted on LinkedIn live, and with us joining is Reena Dayal. Reena is an executive coach who supports board members, CEO CXOs, founders and leadership teams. Her passion lies with working with leaders who are at the scale up stage of business and careers. She's a applied neuroscience and leadership coach, development coach. That's what she calls herself, and for the past decade, she's been working with wood board members and CXOs in 2022 she initiated a project to explore how insights from the world of applied neuroscience could support midlife working women who were exiting the workforce, many of them were experiencing menopause. Welcome to the show, Reena.
Reena
Thank you so much. Deepak, absolutely delighted to be here with the workwise sport team and really looking into our conversations today. So well done for hosting it. Thank you.
Deepak
Thank you, Reena. Let me start as someone who's still trying to understand menopause. What is menopause?
Reena
Actually, you're probably the majority of the population, because most people don't understand what menopause is. We did a survey in 2022 you were talking. I started the project then, and we had about 350 women who responded to the survey. Only 5% of women said that they understood what menopause was all about. So Well, I would think that the percentage of men and other people might be lower than the 5% so what is menopause? A little bit of a biology behind it, so that we can get to the meat of what happens, and therefore the implications of it. So the menopause is actually the final period. So it's a point in the transition that a woman goes through it, but the woman gets to know, or we say generally in medical terms, we get to know that it was the final period when you've not had the menstrual cycle for 12 months. So the menopause is actually a point, but there's obviously that means something that happens before that point and after that point. And what happens before the point? If I were to really kind of go back, when a woman starts having her puberty, she's having her menstrual cycle every month and every month, what's happening in the body is that there are certain eggs that get developed out of which one tick is the dominant egg, and that gets released, and therefore there is potential for pregnancy, and that is there for about five, six days. If that potential for pregnancy does not take place, then there's estrogen and progesterone that gets flushed into the system, which then makes sure that the lining flushes out of the body and the woman has a period. So that's the normal cycle, if I was to call it normal in that sense, the menopause is also normal in a way. But the interesting thing is that women come with finite number of eggs, and actually the number of eggs that a woman has is determined even before birth. So it's really at that time that. X number of eggs are produced. And so you can imagine, when the puberty starts, there's a countdown that's taking place of the eggs. And so there comes a particular time and phase when there aren't enough eggs, the eggs are basically got over. So what happens is that when the eggs are getting over, the ovary understands that an estrogen levels in the body understand that there are not that many eggs, so the production of estrogen also starts stopping. And as you can imagine, therefore this when that reduction is taking place, it's over a period of time, and that phase before deep menopause is called perimenopause. That's the time the bodies are going a little wonky. Wonky is actually quite a medical term, a doctor told me, but basically what's happening is, because there's lower levels of estrogen in the body, the number of eggs are reducing, and therefore be the body is getting used to this phase, when they're not going to be having any puberty. And then there's the menopause. And then after that, there's post menopause, which is the third phase where the body is basically getting adjusted to different hormonal levels in the body. So biologically, that's what has happening during menopause. Basically periods finishing off estrogen levels dropping, progesterone levels dropping, and that has symptoms. So because estrogen levels are dropping, there are a variety of symptoms that a woman can experience during the perimenopause phase, which could include things like we often hear about hot flushes, night sweats, sleeping getting impacted, bone density, dropping down. There's a plethora of symptoms that a woman experiences. Now the research is showing that actually, if I was to look at the entire population of women, and this could happen in the 40s or 50s of women could happen at a younger age, could be medically induced as well. So there are various ways that you can have menopause, but a bulk of the women who are experiencing it are in their 40s and 50s. And if I was to think about it, what doctors tend to say is 25% of them don't feel any symptoms. So the estrogen levels are dropping, body is changing, but they don't feel any of the symptoms we talked about, 25% of the women. It can be very severe, and some of the feedback that we got in our safe groups and surveys and even what's been published, it can be leading to a stage of survival and burnout. It can be that intense. So you've got 25% not experiencing many symptoms, 25% very severe. The 50% in between is a gradient. So some might feel symptoms which are discomfort, or some which are very uncomfortable or significant. So basically, that's what the menopause is, and that's the implication of what takes place in the body from a biology viewpoint and a physiological viewpoint, right?
Sujatha Rao
So one, this is not something that happens once. This goes on for a period of time, and that can extend to months and years.
Reena
Yes, it could be a right. So I know some people who have experienced the perimenopause phase Sujatha, it could go up to 10 to 15 years, right? So some could be two to three. So there's a span of window which changes, so which I think so you've started alluding to another fact, menopause, for two women, symptoms are not the same.
Sujatha Rao
It is something that all women will experience at some point of time in their lives. It is something that will could take up a significant percentage of time in their lives. But this is biological Reena. What you were saying, apart from there, what are some other, perhaps social emotional connections with menopause.
Reena
Absolutely, if it was just an estrogen topic that was happening around menopause, you well could actually just pump the body with estrogen some way or form. By the way, there is something known as HRT happy to talk about that works for some people, not for the others. But there are significantly other things that is impacting the women. So one, as you alluded to, their cultural taboos around it, their social taboos around it. So you know, what does it mean for a woman? She's getting into the bitchy face, she's getting into the dry fish, she's getting into, Oh, she's not useful anymore. So there are a lot of taboos around it because and a lot of it is because of ignorance, because people don't understand what it is, and sometimes, as we well know, when people don't know what to do about it, they just ignore it or let it be, and they don't do anything around it. So there's social and cultural taboos that get impact menopause phase as well. Then there's lifestyle that's taking place. A woman is going through different things in our life at that point of time. It could be to do with a family. It could be either the children are growing up or they're leaving for college. So there's a change that's taking place in her life, phase her career, might be changing at that point of time. So there are lifestyle circumstances that are affecting the women as well. Then it is actually also their lifestyle, and that is. Quite significant in even the self care regime that a woman or an organization can do to support the woman, because there's a lifestyle that starts impacting at that point of time, which could be the food, it could be the nutrition, it could be the water, it could be exercise, it could be all of those elements that are getting impact. So the lifestyle is also, to some extent, kind of getting impacted by that as well. So there are other things as well, I think so sometimes there's also, I don't know whether I should say it in this way, but there's a mindset conversation also around here, because I think so, how the woman herself experiences the phrase, not just the symptoms, but the transition that is significant about how she defines her life after menopause, on the post menopause phase. So the emotions and the mindset that's there around it, about how is she coping with it? What is she defining her life afterwards? How what kind of a leader am I going to be after this? What's my career going to look like? So there's a mind sign element that also starts coming and then plays into the individual. And last, but not the least, I think. So it's the environment that she's working in at that point of time or living in. So how supportive is the family? I often have people kind of coming and saying it, forget about anybody else. How do I have a conversation with my with my spouse and my kids? What do I tell them? Like, am I in laws? What do I tell them? So, you know, there's that thing about, what's the family supportive system? And similarly, in the workplace, like, how do I say I'm having a hot flash in the middle of a meeting? Or what do I tell my line manager that I can't make it today because I'm exhausted I'm having slept the whole night for the last week? Right? The environment as well starts then complicating what the woman is going through. So there are various angles that start intersecting. Sujatha at that stage,
Sujatha Rao
I feel so it's an absolutely natural process. Every woman is going to go through it. Every woman will experience menopause differently. It's not going to be the same, but your study, Reina and other studies do show there is a fairly significant percentage of women who do experience menopause with a great degree of stress, biological, emotional, social, all of the things that you spoke about, some others who perhaps not so much, and you know, it's a very light process for them, and a lot in the middle, right? So there's a spectrum of menopause experiences you alluded not just to the biological, but you've also hinted at the emotional experience of menopause. And emotional not just from my own emotions sort of becoming wonky emotions that I may be experiencing, you know, because of menopause, but also emotions are not wonky in the sense, but how I narrate the story of menopause to myself, right, and how I'm able to make sense of that face of my life. And then, of course, the broader social and other implications for menopause. You started off by saying that even amongst the survey that you did, only 5% of women actually sort of responded with, I do know a lot of menopause, much more about menopause, and you're right in saying, perhaps there's even fewer men who understand menopause. I want to just address this question of maybe taboo conversations or stigma, or whatever it is. You know, with the menstruation itself, maybe 2025, years back, there was this veil of sort of silence. And, you know, I remember if you went to a pharmacy to buy sanitary pads, rapid, hidden newspaper that nobody could know what you were purchasing, and you put it back. But we moved a long way from there when it comes to just understanding and thinking about just, you know, normal menstruation women, there are really, do you think in terms of just a broader conversation starting to take around menopause and women in mainstream societies itself, is that beginning to happen? Are we still lot more in the veil of silence? Where do you think we are?
Reena
I think that response depends upon where you asking that question, I feel that there are different pockets of understanding and awareness from what I have seen across the world. So if I was to for a moment, I'm based in the UK right now, so if I have some insight about what's happening in the UK, UK, I feel, in comparison to some of the other countries, seems to be ahead of the game, because they've taken into the mainstream. The government has got involved. It's got visibility around it as well. I don't see to that extent that kind of maturity. In some of the other countries, the US is strongly behind. The US is strongly behind also, because there's some research taking place, so there's MediCal funding happening to understand it even further. But in other countries, it's pretty much still taboo. In Africa, if I was to think about it, I know I work with women in Africa, it's still a taboo. Women are just supposed to, well, manage it out. You had hit a difficult time. Big deal. Our parents did it. Our grandparents did it. So you just carry it on. Is the perception that's there in India, I. As well. I think so. It's quite interesting. I know that there is this new season in Netflix, sorry, the lives of Bollywood women or something, or Bollywood wives or something like that's there, but it's interesting. The first episode, they talk about menopause. So all I'm saying is sometime in mainstream, it starts coming out as voices. I do know that in the UK, the reason why it got attention is because there were a lot of influencers and women in their 40s and 50s who were celebrities who started talking about it. And that changed the game, because suddenly, like, oh my god, that individual is talking about it. And of course, they were doing something around so that changed the needle, which put pressure on the masses to talk more about it, which put pressure on the government and so on and so forth. So I think it's very varied. Sujatha right now cross, but it'll be fair to say that we do not know much, even from a medical profession. And what I mean by that is, where purity was concerned, menstrual cycle women starting off, we understood what was happening in a woman's body. There was enough research on it, so it was about bringing it out in the open, where menopause is concerned. There's still research taking place around it, because we haven't fully understood how the woman's body gets impacted. So I'm saying the medical knowledge is also not that high right now. I attended the BMS conference last year, and all of the people who presented in the UK, you could make out it's still early days. And they were talking about, we don't have sufficient funding right now to understand it. So medically, not known culturally, there are huge pockets. So it's a spectrum so difficult to answer. It depends where we ask that question. Sujatha is my line of sight.
Deepak
I think at the workplace, Rina, we are talking about menopause today, as from the work wise pod perspective, because we are obsessed about workplaces. And lot of women are hitting the stride in their 40s, 50s, some of them would have perhaps taken a break from maternity. Some may not have, and now they are hit with pre menopause, menopause, and this is a time they're actually coming on their own. The children are older. Perhaps they have time on their hands. They also got, like all of us, have better idea what they want to do, and they want to focus on work wise, career wise, ambition wise. So how does menopause manifest itself at workplaces in the lives of women in general.
Reena
Great question out there. Deepak, so there's been some studies again, forgive me, I'm using UK stats because there's more information, but I think so it's a fair reflection of workplaces generally, with some caveats, I'm sure. So there's a lot of study and research that's happened in the UK. So if I have to think about the Bupa did a study. CIPD did a study a few years ago. The Fauci society did a study. So there are a lot of institutes which are reputable and credible that have done studies, and they're showing that three out of five women in the workplace who are experiencing menopause find it that it is uncomfortable for them, which means that it starts impacting a few things. One is their productivity, because there's exhaustion and sleep and all of that stuff that's taking place, so they feel far more so the productivity gets impacted. Sometimes the executive thinking gets impacted, just because, you know, we've all had a day when we haven't slept well, and next day in the morning, so difficult to work, right? So it's pretty normal in that sense, but if you can imagine, it gets amplified during this particular phase, right? So they sometimes experience things like in a meeting and suddenly there's brain fog. There's like, oh, what were they saying right now? Like, I lost my train of thought, right? So women sometimes experience that, or a mood swing that takes place. Because also, the other thing that's happening hormonally is there's more cortisol in the body during menopause, which is the stress hormone. So we are far more agitable. You know, it is possible. We are excitable, our emotions, all kinds of emotions, not just negative emotions. So, you know, so the woman's behavior also gets impacted. So it's productivity and the visible behavior starts getting impacted for the person. But what the reason is showing because there is not enough reasonable adjustment being made by organizations and people are not actually nurturing the possibilities and opportunities of this phase. Women are exiting the system. So in UK, you've had at least now this data that's showing that 10% of the population during this particular phase are exiting out straight on because they're like, I'm not being able to cope it at this moment of time, it's been now recorded over here as the second biggest talent pipeline leak in the UK, the first one being during maternity leave. So significantly, there's lots of talent that's taking place as well, which are going somewhere else. So not only supported productivity all of that stuff, there's an exit as well that's taking place. So we are seeing a spectrum of impact that's happening in the organization, both by the women as well as by the talent retention aspect as well.
Sujatha Rao
These are big numbers. Us right in, in many ways, you mentioned UK Rina, so just want to go back there for a second in UK because of this focus, let's say through with influencers and so on. Where is UK currently placed, thinking around menopause from, say, The work angle, legally? Are there any protections already in place? Has it found its way into policies? So that's certainly something would be good to hear. And the other also from, you know, your own experience of working with some of the companies in UK, what are companies starting to do to support women? And then maybe we'll then look at what women are doing on their own. But has it found place in a legal framework in the UK?
Reena
Yes, absolutely, yes. It has. So as I was mentioning when the government started paying attention to it in the UK, what they did was they appointed somebody who was Helen Tomlinson, and she was the menopause employment champion put by the government to do a research on what's the status and what should be done around it, which was published, and therefore there are recommendations under the British standard of forgetting the full phrase, forgive me, but it's published as what are the do's and don'ts in an organization and best practices around it? Right? So there's been that piece of work that's taken place which has had significant impact, I think so, and what organizations are doing around it, it is under the UK Disability Act. It's covered under the Equality Act. It's covered under the Health and Safety Act. So actually, in 2022 I think probably for the first time, I want to say they were about was 22 to 23 one of those two years they were 21 very public cases that took place where women sued organization under these various acts. So from a legal acts, again, Reena, it was the disability Yes, the UK Disability Act, the Equality Act, okay, the Health and Safety Act, Health and Safety Act, and in all of those cases, it was discrimination, because if a woman was experienced it and the organization did not make reasonable adjustments. Because often, what happens from a woman's viewpoint, sometimes they don't speak about it because there's a fear factor. Am I going to be sidelined? Am I going to be put aside? People going to question my leadership abilities, you know? So they get into that mode because the environment is not supported. And in a very high profile case, that's what happened. And the woman was actually paid 65,000 pounds, just as you know. So it's becoming very visible on the legal side, because there's a policy around it as well, right? So that's the current framework. Now you ask the question, what are organizations doing in response to it? As you would expect, it's a journey, and there are still majority of organizations which could be like 80 85% plus, who are not doing much around it. So let's be aware of it, that it's not that everybody is doing things around it over here. But on the other side of the spectrum, some of the basic things that organizations are putting into place is, firstly something known as the menopause policy. And there's a draft available by the government, just because, the minute you get it into the organization as a policy, there's governance procedures, as we all know. So there's focus around that, right? And there's a tension on it, so that's probably the starting phase. But the second most important phase that organizations are doing is to build awareness on what is menopause, and which is, interestingly, session that gets often attended by a lot of women, but also, when you run men only, there are a lot of people coming in. Because our own survey said that while women felt that there is a large majority of men, and I think so there was 55% stated in our survey who want to help but they don't know what to do about it. Yes, yes. And as, like one of my very esteemed coaches, and a man who works in the menopause space, said, so I am using his example of saying, sometimes when men don't know what to do, they don't do anything. Then I was like, okay, that's very revealing. We've got Deepak here who's probably disagreeing or agreeing with that one. But you know, so there was also this whole thing about, how do you engage the population? And therefore there's awareness building as well. So that's another area. Then there is this whole thing about reasonable adjustments. Reasonable adjustments could make things like actually, there are some days that a woman can't make it to work. So is there some extra leave that's given to them? Is it like an NHS passport that's given to them? You're given six days in a month where you choose whether you can or cannot make out? So that's a reasonable adjustment having a locker in an organization, because some women have such a bad case of sweats and hot flashes, they actually need a change of clothes. Yeah, previously, they need, sometimes to just go to a place, to just sit quiet for two minutes. You know, that's a reasonable adjustment. It could be a fan that's been provided to them. So all of these are reasonable adjustment. The other area of focus that a lot. Of organizations doing is with line managers, because line managers, in our survey also showed that a majority of line managers, a have no idea B, have no skill around it. So to help them understand how they can support women, that's another sphere that takes place, and last but not the least, it's also the broader How do you support women? So what information are they provided, what medical helplines are they provided, what support they provided? So I think this is across all of those spectrums that we are seeing pieces of work Sujatha, but clearly there are some, just like he had diversity awards, we're beginning to see things like menopause certified organizations in UK, menopause friendly organizations charters being signed, there are some awards that are coming in. So it's gaining visibility from that angle as well.
Deepak
That is amazing, just to know that there are progressive organizations doing the gamut of work that you said, obviously still early stages, but still, you know, awareness, building, training, line managers, creating reasonable accommodations for women, designing the organization, the organization, workplace itself, that there are spaces where women can go, rest, change clothes, menopause policy. So the way I'm thinking, there are three levels. One is, what is the government doing? This systemic support that organizations are playing and I'm assuming that there's still lot more to be done, and progressive organizations, and we are focusing on progressive organizations like what you said, in spite of so many laws being initiated, many organizations are not doing anything right, but some progressive organizations are doing something. And some of the things you said are that, what are women themselves doing? If there is no system or the system is low. What are they themselves doing? Their own agency?
Reena
I think women are also going through a transitionary phase and trying to understand what to do, because there's lack of medical knowledge and lack of understanding. I think there is a plethora of things that women are doing in the recent years. What we're beginning to see that took up a lot of time and attention, and was helpful for a lot of women as well, was HRT, the hormone replacement therapy. And that can work wonders for a lot of women, which is basically a combination of estrogen and progesterone that is given to or the female version progesterone is given to women, and that has quite a dramatic effect in calming down some of the symptoms that a woman experiences, for some it does not have that impact. So there's, again, a variation out there. So women are trying that it's becoming quite popular. That's the only medical thing as such, that is right now, I would say, validated. But having said that, there are poor of other solutions that are available in the market for menopause women, which can be sometimes confusing. It could be creams, it could be vitamins, it could be supplements, it could be suppressors. So there's a variety of and that's a test that a lot of women are doing, because can you think about it, 25% of the women who are experiencing, like survival burnout, for them, it's like, I've got to survive. I've got to try something, and so and so. So that's the second thing that's taking place. But what I have found, and even when I have been coaching women which are midlife, what I've found, is that a significant number of women have now got the idea and understood that it's not just HRT they have to make lifelong lifestyle changes. We often call menopause as the last Wake Up Call from nature, telling women, let's get your act together where lifestyle is concerned. So significantly their lifestyle changes, which could be the eating, the food, the sleep, the habits, you know, then you name it, then basic stuff that they're putting into place. And that is quite an interesting place for us to focus for just a second, if I might be allowed to, because when women do that, they start seeing that side of menopause, which is the opportunity, because once you get your lifestyle habits and foundations stabilized at that stage, this is, as you were alluding to earlier, is probably the best phase for a woman going forward, because she's got all the experience and wisdom to use all that talent she's probably in detailed and of finishing off her motherly duties if she's got children. Yes, there are carer duties that come in because parents are growing older, but there's a far broader breadth and capability and capacity for a woman if she can manage it off. We've seen people significantly pivot at this point of time, and in fact, there's research that started showing up that actually productivity can actually increase for women after menopause, the mental, emotional bandwidth can increase because you've gone through this difficult phase. If you learn how to deal with it, you pretty much got your hands in order then. So they can become quite transformational as leaders, because they've gone through a personal transformation themselves, and know how to get the handler out and get the best out of it. So that's the other side of the spectrum as well about what women are doing to transition this phase. Deepak is what I see
Deepak
fascinating.
Sujatha Rao
I'm so, so glad that you brought in the opportunity aspect into it. Right Reena, I mean, it's, I think it's an opportunity aspect, definitely for women to relook at them. And their lifestyles, but it's also definitely an opportunity for organizations to re look at themselves, right? I mean, we just said that this is the time when, you know, women are, in a sense, really coming into their own as being leaders, and, you know, not just in organizations, but families and communities, and there's a real energy about that, as said, so looking at it from what are we missing out when we don't acknowledge and do something about it in the workplace is, I think, really worthwhile for organizations to look at it. So we had asked, we put out this question, and, you know, we had a lot of women respond to us. And I'm going to ask Amulya to read out some of the questions. Reena mini fridges, of course, these are personal stories, and you know, we want to treat them with the respect and dignity with which you know the women have asked us these questions. But while they are individual stories, I think they also are a meta narrative, right? They are the stories of many people. So Amoolya, could you help us with this and read out some of our questions?
Amoolya
Sure. Sujatha, thank you for the conversation. So far, I think we have some very moving questions and stories being shared with us. So Tanvi says the length of time that I have been experiencing menopausal symptoms is now nearing six years. During this time, I have had two promotions and now manage teams across three countries. I continue to struggle with weight gain, brain fog, hot flushes. I find myself struggling with emotions, and this has taken a toll on my behaviors and emotions at home as well. Recently, my daughter said that I was becoming impossible to live with. I worry how my colleagues are seeing me. Now, I have not actively asked for feedback, but I think that my mood swings and some of my physical discomforts would have been noticed by my colleagues, particularly my boss. No one has said anything, but that worries me as well. Am I being judged behind my back? Will it affect the way that I get rated as a manager by my team or even by my boss, if I wanted to raise this question with my colleagues, how can I do that? How can we talk menopause? I'm
Reena
sure everyone will have some ideas on it. I can throw in a couple of ideas. So from a very practical level, and I had hosted a webinar series last year, and I'd got about 15 experts on it on this topic, so I'm borrowing something from some of them, what they had said, one of the ways I think so, in going back to the point I made, is with all of that complexity. Amulya, thank you so much for sharing. I've heard loads of comments like this, which are really heart wrenching, and you think actually forget, from an organization view, just from a human perspective, do we not want to support women like this, like as another woman, as a as a father, as a brother, as a spouse, as you know, all of those elements so very touching in that story. One way is actually to make this conversation not just about you. There is a bulk of women who are experiencing it. So one of the ways is for women to actually ask, even during this month or this week, of saying, Hey, there's this world menopause day and there's this world menopause month, where there seem to be some interesting stories. What are we as an organization doing to support women? So make it ask, sometimes on behalf of other women, rather than this is my personal story, because sometimes women feel that they might get judged, and in some organizations, they might get, well, get judged actually, that's the reality. So I think one is to be able to express it. The other is to be able to actually be very pragmatic about it, of saying what is the adjustments that they want, and to make that, and be courageous enough to make that part of the conversation of their growth within the organized so there is a little bit of responsibility, I think, about women trying to also build up awareness with other people. But also there's an opportunity there, because what we have seen is when women explain it out without being judgmental to other men or line managers, they're quite open in supporting them, because they just don't know how, so they get into that kind of a backseat. So I think so. One is to actually to have a confidential chat and see whether you can get support around it. Is really, really important. The other is to also go to functions like HR, de and I health and safety and have a conversation with them about saying what kind of support is there from a business perspective. Think about it. There have been some studies that have been done by way of percentages, and it is possible that 25 to 30% of female population that is there in an organization are experiencing menopause, and they're experiencing it in a way which is not that great. The question for an organization should be, where are these 25% sitting? What roles are they sitting in? What did they exit tomorrow? So you know, also, to be able to ask questions sometimes in business forums about what's the risk element here that we need to have a conversation about from a business perspective, so from on behalf of other women to individual to be able to ask talk about the business cases, something that a woman has a choice to do, it's not easy, which is why it's important to women also in to ensure that they have a support network outside the organization on this topic. Because sometimes, you know, you get the support and ideas from there as well. So those are some of the ways, I think, so that a woman can start expressing it. But first, and first, most I would tell to any such woman, though I know it's difficult, is the system might not change overnight. You experiencing it right now. Firstly, look after yourself. And as Sujatha was saying, you know, try to start seeing whether you can pivot into the place. About it being an opportunity. I think so. When women do that, they also get more bandwidth, because they're already having so many challenges. Now we're telling them, okay, now go change the system as well. They're like, hello. When do I stop? So I'd say, Be selfish to women. Look after your health. This is an important phase. Get some really good information around it, and then, you know, start influencing in your own style and way, ask on behalf of other women some thoughts, just to add on to thoughts that you all might have on that question. Amoolya
Sujatha Rao
these are the great ideas. Reena, and I think that even the absence of formal HR departments or formal dei guidelines. I think if we can, if we can look around and ask, you know, do I have a circle of trust, right? Do I have, you know, a group of people I can talk to, men and women, you know, I think sort of inviting and CO opting men into the conversation to support you, to say this is a workplace issue, rather than feeling very much like you pointed out, I'm already dealing with a lot of things right now, you want me to go and champion something else can seem very down, very sort of intimidating. I think even just taking stock of perhaps resources that you have, that you have not consciously identified, right and being able to start talking through them, with them. At the very minimum, provide you a space of some sort of support and breathing space, right? Even if the organization doesn't do anything, you don't feel so alone anymore. And you pointed it out, right, like 25 to 30% of the organization at that point of time, you know, women might be going through very similar journeys, or might enter into similar journeys. So it's a great opportunity to build that support system with resources that are there, but you may not be, you may be invisible to you haven't seen it. In that sense, very good point. And I just want to underline that safe spaces for women to talk about another great initiative that organizations can do, and even women can do it themselves. So you don't have to have a really like system around it, even if there are two, three women who are of the similar age that you feel might be experiencing it and start having chats at that level. So definitely not feeling alone is a is a very important part, to be able to experience the beauty of this phase, rather than just the dark side of it.
Amoolya
It's interesting. You mentioned the safe space thing. There are a couple of questions from women where they talk about their colleagues and sometimes even their bosses, joking about women being in that phase of life and constantly going on leaves. And they may also have laughed in that situation. Krishna says ‘I heard a colleague jokingly to another colleague that if there are deadlines around the corner to check if I would be on leave, they both laughed, and I also laughed, but I'm not sure if I'm being seen as unprofessional. Now that I feel my body and my emotions are getting better, I'm not sure if this is something that I should raise with my team my boss, on the one hand, I want to raise this so that there are conversations about this in my company. But on the other hand, I think that this is not something I should be carrying the flag for.’ So I think this speaks to something that you brought up Reena, that if it's hard to make it just about yourself, and it's important that other people are also talking about this, and not just you, especially you know your male colleagues and male allies. And Krishna is concerned how she would be seen within the organization. What do you think we can tell her?
Reena
Yeah, it's very easy for us to sit in the space and have this conversation say, you know, go have a conversation with somebody you know. Having said that, let's not forget, women are actually very courageous when they push to the corner. And I think so it is a question of us just inviting women to be courageous about this conversation and confront these conversations that are taking place, because sometimes, whether they are supporting it with just laughing in uncomfortably when somebody makes that statement, or keeping quiet and ignoring it, or worst case feeling that they are unprofessional, you know. So all of those are reactions because we ourselves don't know what to do. So I think so as women, I would say, think, what is your exit line, or how would you respond to that comment when you're not in that situation? So what is it that women could tend to do? So I know a lot of women who actually proactively joke about it in organizations, but they do it in a way, just to alert them that it doesn't actually impact their productivity. So it might actually say, you know, you guys might laugh about my hot flashes, but actually, that doesn't mean I'm a great leader. When you openly challenge it, it's difficult for people to or even somebody has been laughing or making jokes. It's like, actually, it's not a laughing matter. But I. Tell you more about that later on, to make that statement in public, but then have a side conversation with the individual of saying, you know, this is what it is all about. Because half the time, people are joking and making those statements because they have no idea what to do about it, you know. So it's about just gently taking them aside that you're a leader, you know. So it does involve courage. I will not say that's not required, but sometimes we feel we can't do things, and when we do it, it's like, oh, actually, it wasn't that difficult. We did it and it had an impact. So I would encourage women like her, and there are many out there, to start having those conversations with individuals who are making that statement. And a lot of women, at times, are not supportive of other women as well. So I'm not, for the moment, suggesting that this is men versus women conversation. It's women as well. And even those women do it for two reasons. One is because they might not be experiencing it, and therefore they don't understand it from that extent, and given that there's not much knowledge anyway, but the other is because the system has guided them to think that that's the way that behavior should take place at certain levels. So the role of leaders here becomes exceptionally important here, and I will put a huge load of responsibility on them, is to be mindful of conversations and remarks and slide remarks that are taking place, and step up and make a comment on it, because when they keep silent, people think they can get away with those comments as well. So there's a role that leaders can play as well, and sometimes it's great for such women to make sure that they're having some of these conversations with senior leaders and people who are already part of what I would call their circle of trust that Sujatha was talking about. So we all do know that women are going up a leadership ascent. One of the critical things that helps their career trajectory is, who do they knew at senior levels in UK, we use the word sponsors. Who are your sponsors? It's not just line manager who should know how good you are. So if you have that circle of sponsors, then do you also include this as part of the conversation? Because while this is a difficult thing, this is also what makes a woman special as a senior leader. So from that perspective. So how engaged are you? How alone? So all I would say is, don't think it's an alone thing. Get other people involved in the change that you want to experience.
Sujatha Rao
You know, Deepak and I, we had done this conversation sometime back Reena around gender in the workplace, right? Gender, gender discrimination in the workplace, and we had this conversation around microaggressions. If you remember Deepak, you know, we had sort of broken open the entire iceberg of microaggressions. Some of these are seem at one level, very trivial, right, like a raised eyebrow, a little smirk, sort of a little nudge between, you know, two male colleagues when a woman says something. And I think a lot of women are trained to observe that, but they see it purely from as a woman. You know, I have to soldier on. Sometimes you call it out, sometimes you ignore it because you've got bigger battles to fight. But I think that it's important to recognize that a stage of life when you are under biological stress, emotional stress, social stress, etc. There is a need to call it out for not just what it is, right. It's not just gender discrimination because it is gender discriminatory practices, but also to call it out for just a very human response, right? When someone is in need, you really don't want to be belittled and mocked and all of those microaggressions that we sort of talked about and Deepak, you remember one of the conversations we had was about how men handle microaggressions. When you see it happening, you see it, but you don't say anything about it, and you're very quiet. I think that even if you don't know a lot about menopause and you educate yourself, there's still a role for men to call out any form of nach, nudge, wink, wave, whatever you call it, and these subversive sort of practices. And in that conversation, I think the role of the man was extraordinarily powerful in being able to bring that out. So yeah, I just wanted to say, this is certainly not a women's conversation. This is a, this is a human conversation in the world,
Deepak
the micro aggression that you talk about now, Sujatha can be performed by anybody, a man and a woman, right? Absolutely. And many times, I think some of the questions that we have received is about a lot of them refer to jokes, yes. And oftentimes humor and Joe doesn't count as micro aggression. Hence, they are far more powerful in terms of a microexpressive behavior, because it seems to not land as a micro aggression. So I think humor is especially around disability, whether or whether it's about periods, or whether it's about menopause or I think for me, it has no place in the workplace, you know, because it creates a workplace, a condition where, even if there are other women laughing at it, it creates a condition where they actually don't like it, but they're laughing to be part of the group. You. So I think it's lot more so the microaggression perhaps, as a male ally, or even as a woman, it's easier to spot, but humor is lot more dangerous.
Reena
I agree with both the points you are making there is you're right, microaggressions. There are many that we know, that people experience, and so in in some ways, those who are the micro aggressors? In fact, that's the word I can use, and they could be anybody also know that how humor can be damaging as well, but you kind of make the point. So I think people know some of these behaviors. So a lot of research has said that microaggressions is actually something that people know, but they're doing it because they have no other choice in their life. They feel that's how they have to do it to gain control over other people, right? So that's their mechanism. You're right. It does not have place in any organization for on any subject, certainly not on this subject, but we know that it does exist, and the only way sometimes to address some of these things is to shine the light of awareness, if they knew what women experience and go through, if they knew it could well be their wife, their sister, their best girlfriend, their best girl, mate, their sister, their children might have it. If they knew that, surely, from a human perspective, men and women might probably look at it differently from that humanity angle. So it goes back to that there is no awareness, there's lack of ignorance. So we are trying our best as we can as individuals. And the current status quo is microaggressions, women suffering, women exiting, all of that stuff. So therefore, I think to that extent, it is something that is a wait and watch and see, and it needs active action. So if microaggression is happening on this, does a leader keep quiet? If they do, then they're basically supporting the microaggression. Leaders need to understand that straight off. So to that extent, I'm saying the responsibility does fall on the leader. To a large extent out there, I love that question. Amolya,
Amoolya
I know we were saying that it doesn't have to be a gendered issue, and it's a human issue, but we have this very interesting question from Priya. She asks us, if menopause was a man's issue, would organizations respond to it differently? And I think we do know the unfortunate answer largely to this, but yeah, I think we should talk about it.
Reena
What would an organization do? But let's, let's just, let's just fall back to the big, bigger context. We know that workspaces that were pretty created were created traditionally for men to come to the workplace, which is why we have a lot of male patriarchy behaviors, which are considered as great for leadership behaviors. That's how the system has been created. So that's the context that we are talking about. So in that context, if it was a man's issue, would it have been addressed? Potentially could have been addressed, because the system is geared to serve that target audience. What might be that shape or form? I don't have we can all come up with possibilities of how that support might be created, right? But there is a fact around it, but that fact, for me, needs an interesting insight, which is an opportunity. So therefore we are saying that the system right now is not equipped to support women, but it is equipped. It could well be equipped to serve men, because that's traditionally the system that they operate in. So if you had to turn the tables. It is about, how do we change the system? Which is where some of the other stuff that comes into place, which is policy and structures and stuff like that that comes into place, but would the organization treat it differently? Chances are, yes, what it might look like. I feel I'll just be having a guessing game to see what it might look like. So I don't know, but chances are it could have been given more importance and had some kind of a structured network. Remember, we used to talk about the old boys network, and that's how people grow in an organization. Well, that's why nowadays, when we do women leadership programs, we talk about them getting sponsors, because we know that's how the system works, but women tend not to have that. So how do you create sponsors so that if we have visibility at senior level. So I'm just drawing that analogy to say, even in this aspect, it's about what's the support that we could provide to women? Because certainly, men would make sure that they were supported. And I'm saying actually, the men will support women. They just don't know what to do right now, and they haven't found that human connection. Because when there are sessions run for men only on menopause, in organizations in the UK, there's high attendance, because a lot of men who are at senior levels actually have women wives, whether they're working or not working, or going through menopause. So there is that curiosity. We just need to position it as a It's not taboo. Let's talk about it. It's a natural phase, and actually, it could be the best phase for everyone, but it can be challenging for some. So can we support people that I know it's easier said than done, but visual thinking on world menopause day is alright.
Deepak
My one thing is that progressive organizations will do what you're saying. You, whereas extractive organization will extract what you call value from anyone. Doesn't really matters, man or woman.
Reena
So yeah, it's going to be the D, E and I story, isn't it? We know a lot of companies that are progressive, a lot of them are doing a check box, and a lot of them who are doing zero stuff. It's actually a similar story, but in all of this, the one that's getting impacted the most, no matter what you say, is the woman, which is why we bring the focus back to women. Of saying, what is it that you're doing? Because even if your organization ain't doing we recognize it's a difficult time, and so therefore, what can you do? And there are a lot of things and some ideas we've discussed today that a woman could do without even impacting the system, like really look after themselves and have a support network in a circle of trust, as Sujatha was saying, right?
Amoolya
You've been talking about the work that you've been doing, supporting women in their leadership roles and in this inflection point in their lives. And you mentioned something very interesting about the reframing of the situation, right? That it can be a critical, transformational point. And we got a question, or rather, I think it's an experience that Shannon is sharing with us. She says that one terrible struggle I had was with brain fogs. I kept forgetting things like dates, names, sometimes even things that we had decided in the meeting. I felt that it was important for me to seek the support of my team more. So I started, firstly to talk to them about some of my struggles, but also to tell them that they should take more decisions themselves. I feel that inadvertently, I have become a better leader because of menopause. I am more empathetic. I am much more hands off with my team. I feel that I have created a stronger, more capable team who work very well, even in my absence. So menopause has shaped my leadership practice considerably.
Reena
I love it. I love it, and it's such a great thing, isn't it, because that's the opportunity, I think, of reaching out and getting doing more delegation, something that senior leaders really struggle with as coaches in this room. I think we all recognize that it's such a huge transition point, but this kind of forces you into that. So therefore, in a lot of ways, it can be a great opportunity to really recalibrate your skills as a leader. And we all know this is a transition point where after this, you can get into really senior levels where What Got You Here Won't Get You There. So there is this call out to change your behaviors and your styles anyway, as when you're on a leadership ascent, and this might potentially give you some really good excuses and reasons why you need to do that. So yes, in my work, what is it that I get to see people as from an excitement and enthusiastic viewpoint? I get so excited when I talk with women who are midlife and who some of who are experiencing a bad form or a good form of menopause, whichever way you want to look at it, you know, they're really looking at amplifying that impact from their here onwards. So they want to amplify their voice on something that matters to them in the workplace or outside workplace. So they're moving into the high impact and amplification phase of their career, most of them want to do something that uses the experience in the past, but not do the same kind of job. So they're ready for transitions to do something different and meaningful in their life, per se, right? So that I definitely see that as the mood of the hour when we are working with women at this particular phase menopause, per se, I think, allows them to do two or three things when they get into the whole so specific mindset. One is to get the health in order. That's primarily a huge opportunity for women to really get their health in order. And when we've got the best 1/3 of our life left after that, right, or maybe half of our life left with medical sciences are encouraging. So really get the health on the order, because this is the last phase, so as to speak, to get some of those foundational stuff in there. The second is the working styles, as you're alluding to Amulya, whether it's more delegation, whether being more vulnerable as a leader, being more transparent, being a role model for younger women who are probably looking up and listening to all of this conversation saying, OMG, like, that's menopause, really. So, you know, really becoming a role model for other women and other generations, learning how to influence the system as well. So there are a lot of skills beyond just delegation, you know, and working with team members, that's the opportunity for women. And I see that flex taking place, so they pivot in a way, and say, All right, how can I change my style so I can get more done in less time and less stress? Because that's what a woman is experiencing. So in that sense, I think so there's a huge opportunity as well. So for marks to women like the one that you just mentioned, who are taking that opportunity, and there can be many more, but we're just trying to elude at what are the possibilities that is there. But suddenly they become a far more powerful voice after this particular phase, because they also have less responsibilities, I think, from a home front as well, or they move into the gig economy. So in UK, that's what's happening. Where are these 10% women leaving? They're going to the gig. Economy, because entrepreneurship is on the rise. So they're doing great stuff there as well. So they're still very productive to the economy, which is good news. So from an economy perspective, they're like, they're not working in a corporate they're working in the Gigan, very good. But I'm just saying it could be so much more better as well.
Sujatha Rao
I think reframing it as not just a woman's issue, but as a human, this is what it means to be human, and to sort of look at it naturally, which in some ways is very helpful, and to look at it as an opportunity for reevaluation of so many things, right, your lifestyle, your body, your choices and all of that. But I think for organizations, just the recognition that this is by being blind to this, which many organizations continue to be, or to treat this as an issue not worth discussing or considering, or to, you know, sort of brush it under the carpet or, you know, oh my god, we can't talk about it in the workplace. You know, we have to talk about the next five years strategy, plan, rather than this, I think it's an enormous opportunity lost, right? I mean, women, firstly, are such a powerful economic force today. Imagine the value of talking to menopausal women. Imagine the variety of products and services you can build out, or, I don't know, you know, how many billions that market is, so seeing them for that, but also seeing them for the contribution that they make to the workplace, and if you're not smart enough, well, they'll exit and make that contribution somewhere else, right? Maybe to another organization that's smart about it, or, like you said, to the broader society. I mean, we have women sort of doing gig and independent work now in a significant way. So, yeah, I think it's a October 18 is an important day to have this conversation and treat it as a beginning of continuous conversations in organizations. So, I mean, nothing's going to change overnight. Yeah, to be able to do that, I think, has been fantastic.
Deepak
Think, from a leadership growth perspective, I would say objective view, this also offers the opportunity for leaders to champion a course within their organization. Meaning, leadership is about taking chances, about taking initiative, supporting people in the organization who come stand for themselves. That for me, whether it's a man or a woman, supporting women going through menopause, it's an ability to solve a problem, but also in a Machiavellian sense, also to get noticed as well.
Reena
Totally agree with you, absolutely, and I think so in that's the another interesting thing that we're beginning to see in pockets, I will caveat, but certainly getting to see pockets in UK is a lot of male allyship conversations that men are leading in the public forum, and a lot of them are calling themselves out as those who are supporting the menopause conversation. So I think all of those things help, going back to the point that we were saying earlier on about how the system is geared towards men, so men can play that role and be champions in it. So absolutely agree with that role is it's a complex situation. There's no doubt about it. It's an evolving change. One of the hopes that I see, which is very refreshing, is, how is it that women who are going to be the Gen Y or the millennium is going to address this issue? And I find it hopeful, because when I have run some forums and round table conversation, and they've been younger women, their response more has been like, of course, we should talk about it. You know, they're far more bold about bringing the conversation out there. Remember, these are the youngsters who, at one point of time, challenge organization, what purpose do you have? Tell us, then only we'll join you. My generation would not have thought about that question when we were going for an interview, right?
Sujatha Rao
So there's a change. So I think so, without wanting to put the load of them, I'm saying already, we are seeing the younger generation question some of these elements, and so sometimes I actually wonder whether there's an opportunity for women across generations to get together and have this conversation, so that their voice can be far more wholesome, fulsome, supportive of everything and the transition that takes place. But definitely I see that as another beacon to add on to the ideas that we have talked about today and the realities of what is emerging. This has been a wonderful conversation, Reena, and I'm glad we could do it today as a beginning of perhaps more conversations around it. And I think there are lots of ideas, lots of possibilities, lots of opportunities for women to come together, men and women to come together, to not just talk about it, but actually put into practice workplaces that are much more comfortable and accommodating for women to do what they are already doing really well, right, being extraordinary leaders and sort of growing into defining organization spaces differently the point that you were saying about the younger generation, I completely agree, and I think that's a wonderful thing to be have that kind of challenge thrown at leaders today to say, hey, you know, why are we not talking and doing more about this? So I think there's a space there for, you know, the Deepak spoke about. This kind of different signaling, a different kind of leadership itself, right that that men and women can do. And I also think as more and more women get into positions of influence within organizations, I think there would be many more opportunities for systemic change itself to sort of take place. So thank you so much for this conversation. Reena, any last thoughts you want to leave us with before we close the session today, we should have this conversation again next year. On World, menopause, maybe in between. India, maybe in between, right?
Reena
Maybe, of course, absolutely, would be, as you said, it is a continuing conversation, but it's also good to take snapshots and keep the keep the conversation going. So thank you to you and your team for organizing this, because I know this is quite a new topic for a lot of people, and we've covered a lot of issues, but Well, hats off to you. So thank you for organizing this. It's been a pleasure.
Sujatha Rao
We'll we'll have this out as a podcast soon. So for people who you know couldn't join in live, they would listen to it. We will also, also have resources and websites and Reena, of course, some information about you and so on so forth. So also looking forward to the podcast when it comes out. So yeah, thank you, Reena. Thank you. Thank you. Reena.
Deepak
Thank you. Yeah,
Reena
thanks, Sujatha. Thanks Deepak.
