Organisational Transformation of Gram Panchayats
In this episode, Sujatha and Deepak speak to Sonali Srivastava, founder and CEO of ANODE Governance Lab to uncover the intricacies of Gram panchayats as organisations - their role in Indian society and governance; their transformative potential and changes in Gram Panchayats over the years. They also discuss the different Organisation Development processes, Change Management processes that Sonali has worked with a few Gram Panchayats; their impact on the Gram Panchayats as an organisation and societal institution. Finally, the conversation also touches upon the leadership qualities that cut across corporate, social and civic spaces.
Diwali Night;Jivya Soma Mashe, Museum of Art & Photography (Bangalore)
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About Sonali Srivatsava
Pic: Sonali Srivatsava
Sonali is a development & management professional and an Organisation Development practitioner.
She is the founder and CEO of Anode Governance Lab. With a strong belief in capacities of people, she set up Anode to help stimulate, activate, and mainstream local institutions, towards inclusive and effective governance. She has been instrumental in conceptualizing the Gram Panchayat Organisation Development (GPOD) framework, which is a process driven approach to develop organisation capacities of rural local governments (Gram Panchayats) to become responsive units of self-governments. Anode has been working across multiple states in India, including Karnataka, Jharkhand, Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh, and more recently commenced work in UP and Bihar.
Sonali is keen yoga practitioner, enjoys singing sessions, lending her voice too at times.
Sonali holds a Personnel Management and Industrial Relations degree from XLRI Jamshedpur and a Masters in Development Studies from SOAS, University of London.
Resources
Panchayat Raj, M.K. Gandhi
Gram Panchayat Organisation Development (GPOD) Framework, Anode
Transcript
Sowmya 00:04
Hello everyone and welcome back to Season Two of the Workwise Pod. Gram panchayats are a remarkable institution that is really at the heart of India's democratic system. In today's episode, Deepak and Sujatha are talking to Sonali Srivatsava, founder and CEO of ANODE Governance Lab to uncover the intricacies of Gram panchayats as organisations. Sonali works with Gram panchayats to improve several facets of Panchayat functioning. From engagement of elected members and governance, effective structures and systems, and better utilisation of government funds. Stay tuned.
Sujatha Rao 00:50
India is the world's largest democracy. It's a remarkable institution at the heart of its democratic system, decision making and governance, the Gram Panchayat constitutionally embedded with local decision making powers by the 73rd amendment to the Indian constitution. GPs around the country perform the functions and the powers entrusted to them by state legislature. Their role is to help plan coordinate monitor and wherever required, regulate implementation of various national and state programmes. They are an extraordinarily powerful organisation within the broader Panchayat Raj system. And because they deal with a complex ecosystem of stakeholders, the community members of the village, the political bodies, pressure groups, legislature, etc. Understanding how GPs manage themselves and understand their change management processes are important learnings for all organisations to sort of look at and learn from how can a very externally focused organisation enable all its stakeholders to find a voice when they embark on a change management process? So Sonali, I want to sort of kick start this conversation with a very fundamental question, introduced GPs. If you could expand on that a little bit more. And tell us what is the Gram Panchayat? What are its vision? And what is its structure and processes like
Sonali 02:33
I hear first would like to go back to a little episode, you know, during the drafting of the Constitution itself. And at that point of time, we know that Gandhi for Gandhiji, the village Swarajj, was fundamental to our freedom. But Dr.Ambedkar, as chairman of the drafting committee, had pretty much different views, in fact, had grave apprehensions that is of a village,the caste system, discrimination against women, etc, would also manifest itself in these institutions. So there was a lot of back and forth. The committee just couldn't agree finally, included in the Directive Principles in the article 40, which is basically directional for the subsequent governments and not really at that point of time imperative on the government to form. So it was an interesting change of ideas between two freedom fighters to cause another till 1992 to actually pass a constitutional amendment where the 73rd Amendment was passed. And this incidentally, also took a long time there were three or four attempts earlier by Rajiv Gandhi and then finally when Mr. Narsimha Rao was a prime minister, this amendment was passed and Panchayati Raj institutions so to save a formally inducted, and they were formalised in the country. So to your question, the Panchayati Raj institutions are a three tier system. They are the district at the block and at the village level at the Gram Panchayat. There is also a fourth institution, which is a Gram Sabha. So the electorate all the citizens who are above 18 are included in the Gram Sabha. Panchayati Raj is a state subjec so which means basically the extent of devolution of powers or functions of ones and who are should be employed in the Gram Panchayat is all at the jurisdiction of the state.There are many states which are far ahead and which are some states where, there's very little devolution still, actually, what appeals to me is that every village in our country is represented by a village institution, a constitutionally mandated body which represents their interests.There are two and a half lakh panchayats in the country. And as against a village citizen going to a block to get his or her issues resolved. to just engage in governance, he or she has opportunity to actually walk to an institution, which is a government institution, which is a political body, engage in this core process of governance. Also feels to me is that almost about 30 lakh people enter into this political system.You actually have opportunities of so many number of men and women from different castes and religions, entering into the political system, and creating that extremely important fundamental base, political body at all tiers. This is something which really interests me as opportunities as something that can be built upon for something as large as nation building.
Deepak Menon 05:46
I'm assuming the leaders are called your Gram Panchayat Leaders? Like what is the structure of a Gram Panchayat internally?
Sonali 05:54
So the Gram Panchayat, Deepak has an elected body. So there are between 10 to 15 members who are elected to a Panchayat, the duration of a body is five years. And there's a election process which is laid down in each. Yeah, so just to come back. After the constitution amendment, each state had to pass its own Panchayati Raj act. Act lays down the roles and responsibilities of members of the staff, primarily the secretary of the Gram Panchayat. And it also lays down what functions would be there? What are the functions that Panchayat has to actually conduct? How should they collaborate with the other agencies at the block and district level, and it also lays down the election process. So based on that, the body comes into every five years a body changes and the new body comes in. Other people that is a staff or the Secretariat continues, and they are in most cases, government servants, who are like Panchayat Sachiva, a secretary or a Panchayat development officer in Karnataka or a bill collector, etc. So every state has a different structure in terms of what staff would be there in the Pachayat.
Sujatha Rao 07:12
So just to clarify, Sonali Gram Panchayat would consist of elected representatives, and also administrative staff. So there are two kinds of people in the Gram Panchayat itself.
Sonali 07:27
That's right.I also wanted to actually just move to one more tier, which is a Gram Sabha, which is basically, it's gaining a lot of importance now, of late. They are the, there's 5000 6000 people in that particular Panchayat and the engagement, the possibility of engagement of these members as against us, as voters in a large state etc. The engagement possibilities of the Gram Sabha are far higher. And they are actually engaged in almost day to day governance, things like preparation of plans, finalisation of decisions, etc. So this body is also a constitutionally mandated body. So I think it's good to, although it never says anywhere, we normally talk of a three tier structure. I think it's good to start talking about a four tier structure, because the Gram Sabha is also an equally important entity in this entire framework.
Sujatha Rao 08:24
And so the Gram Sabha will liase continuously with the Gram Panchayat in terms of the daily concerns, issues challenges that that particular village is encountering Is that Is that how the relationship would be between the Gram Sabha and the Gram Panchayat?
Sonali 08:44
As far as the procedures go? there supposed to be four mandatory Gram Sabhas in a year? And the functions of Gram Sabha is to prioritise on, the tasks that have been judged should do, and it has to approve the Gram Panchayat plan, annual plan, it also has to be as an oversight body where it has a right to see the financials of Gram Panchayat and actually do an audit and approve its expenditures and budgets. So this is all written, how much is followed? Of course, we all know. But yeah, there's that I'm talking about the potential, as to what can be done.
Deepak Menon 09:23
That's actually a good segue for me to ask a question that I was meaning to ask is when it works really well in state where it works really well? What is the transformative potential of Gram Sabha Gram Panchayats if you see states like Kerala,one big change or a difference of Kerala with other states is the percentage of state funds, which is managed by a Gram Panchayat. It's basically called devolution of funds to the different tiers. In Kerala about 36 or 37% of state funds are devolved to Gram panchayats. That is a huge and as against for example, if you look at even Karnataka, which is third or fourth, we have a devolution index where every state is sort of calibrated on certain parameters and based on which, the in the index they're sort of they gain a position. Kerala tops on year on year it has been topping, Karnataka, West Bengal etc, come close to second, third, fourth. Karnataka is 9%. So I'm just saying look at the difference. So Kerala is far far ahead. Now, what is Kerala do Kerala truly represented citizens it is the one which is making its plans. It's taking decisions on priorities of its citizens. All the government programmes and schemes which had to be implemented in a village are actually done by the Gram Panchayat itself. Kerala also works very closely with what is called Kudumbashree. So the Kudumbashree basically is women's collective, it started off with a women's collective, and its a citizens body. So now actually a citizens body such as a Kudumbashree, which is basically a women's Collective is equally powerful as a Gram Panchayat. What is happening is as a good balance between you know, governance and citizen engagement, so to say, and so they both sort of, you know, they are both able to keep each other accountable in some sense. So, I would say in a state like Kerala or a good state, I would feel that first engagement of citizens and the functioning of the Panchayat both has to be strong. Sonali, what were the some of the OD principles and practices that you first started using? And over time? How did these processes change for you, The OD intervention processes change over time.
Sonali 11:58
So, if you look at some key organisation components, any good organisation should have there should be clarity of vision, there should be a strategy in place on how you want to go about achieving this vision. So what are the goals? Who are you going to be focusing on? How will you go about implementing these goals? Once there's clarity on, what and how, and the purpose then you move into any organisation has to lay down or should have a structure which is aligned to achieving these goals, along with the structure, there should be a key, they we call them key business processes. When we started working with panchayats, I, the only thing I kept hearing continuously was Gram Panchayat planning process. So everybody, the NGOs, government was primarily engaged in preparation of plans in the Panchayat. planning was being done by a Panchayat without these foundational organisation components. So therefore, in fact, when I started in 2010 11, I felt and I heard that most plans were not implemented at all. So why were they not implemented? The basically, the key principles or key components of an organisation did not exist in a Panchayat, or in most Panchayats. And therefore, the the first job was to see what are these? You know, what, are these foundational components? And how do we actually start working with the Panchayats to clarify these right in their organisation? So what we did was we did an action research project. So we said, Okay, we'll you know, we'll partner with two Panchayats, we thought that will be a good number to, you know, in two different districts to really go deeper into understanding what these bodies are like. And there was a mutual selection process, we wanted Panchayats who are wanting to improve themselves, and you know, learn some more. And we in fact, told them that, you know, there is no money involved here we are trying to learn, but from this process, so there were two of these Panchayats, which came on board, and I think they were fantastic. These were Urkunde,Mittur and Mulbagal block in Kolar district, and Dibburahalli Panchayat in Sidlaghatta Chikkaballapur district. So these 25 30 members, elected members across these two Panchayats, we really worked with them very, very closely for three years. And literally, we were there every week and so started using the OD principles to develop some sort of a methodology for engagement. In OD also you call groups or meetings, right? And only two, three people speak. Why does it happen because most people are not engaged. So then we said, Okay, we went first we had a meeting and we said, Okay, we would like to work with you. There were some members who were very articulate, they said, we are interested in but you know, 60 70% people are not talking. what do we do now? we started engaging in individual conversations. we were starting to build those individual relationships and With that, with those individual engagements we were able to then sort of, you know, engage most people. And then when we met them as a group, when we started engaging with them as a group, then there was far more, it was a far more dynamic group.
Sujatha Rao 15:13
So that's really interesting, Sonali, and I think some things to unpack before you proceed further. So two key principles here. First, that the OD process is an invitational process, right? You invited people to opt in for this. And so there is no mandate from the top to participate in, you know, an organisational design and development journey. Second, the process began with the building of individual relationships, right. And this is, of course, time consuming, but what you are saying is that the entire od process happened, because you spend time building that individual, one on one, almost trust based relationships. And not all OD approaches begin like this, but building that individual relationships then helped you in engaging with them as a group. So I think those are two really interesting principles. So can you tell us what happened next?
Sonali 16:13
Then we went into the process of visioning. we actually did two things we did attempt diagnosis also, at that point of time that okay, if you are all of you are Panchayat members, do you understand what your Pachayat is like? And we will have a set of questions where we will, you know, attempt saying, what is the current status of your Panchayat? So a lot of discussions on whether we should do diagnosis before vision, or we should do the vision first, when we know where we want to go and then say, where are you? So then we said, Okay, we use two different methodologies. And one Panchayat will say, we'll do the vision first and the other one, we will do the current state first and things. So we did both, and post the vision and the current state, we went into dancing, okay, now you have defined your vision. And the visioning process is very interesting. We got people together, we started to we ask them to narrate stories of their successes, what are the strengths you're bringing to the as a group to this entire Panchayat, because they didn't feel empowered, but you had to sort of help them understand what strengths they were bringing in.We designed the vision process where we talked about, , people had many stories in the storytelling session for about four or five hours, where everybody shared, what kind of challenges that they face and the kinds of challenges people face is something which is so,, sometimes you are not you you really feel humbled, because I don't think we face challenges like that, right? I mean, poverty in villages, children not being able to go to school, domestic violence, and how people were actually able to come out of that and what kind of what support they got to do all this. So, from there, we arrived at strengths and then we said, now that we are all, we have all these trends and used to put them all in the wall, etc. And say, so, now, let us look at where you want to go as a group, where do you want to go? What kind of a Panchayati you want to create? So there was a image, you know, there was a vision?
Sujatha Rao 18:07
could we say then that one of the foundational OD or, you know, sort of chain management approach that you sort of have been looking at and following a preliminary first step is building relationships with people ground up, and not necessarily what has been happening in traditional od which is contracting with the CEO or with the, the head of the organisation to get into a change process?
Sonali 18:38
Yeah, OD basically, it's known that OD successful when the leader initiates it is committed. Now, who's the leader here, actually, so if you look at a Gram Panchayat, even the elected head of the institution, may or may not be the actual leader, because most of the times these positions are reserved, and the dominant members may be different from those who are actually the elected. So we treated the body as a whole, instead of and we reached out to them, saying that, with each one of you, for us is a critical stakeholder. We did start with the dominant members, because they spoke to us, but we said that we will move forward and we will talk to each individual because engagement and it's not a big body. No, it's a 13 -14 people, right? It's not like a 500 people organisation. So it was important to engage with each of them and and therefore building those relationships. That's right, yeah.
Deepak Menon 19:32
Trying to draw parallels between the corporate world and the GP processes. So in a way, you learned the OD processes from the corporate world from formal workspaces, then implemented them or try to implement them in the Gram panchayats. What are the biggest differences that you would see working with organisations and working with GramPanchayat
Sonali 19:54
So first and foremost difference? No, Deepak I think is we have to understand the pulse of what we are doing, or the spirit of what we are doing rather than the word to vision bhole tho, the vision is what I mean, you know, you have to really explain if I talk to you, you understand vision, okay, long term thinking, you don't have to, you should not think of resources when you are looking at Vision exit many, it's very difficult in a village. Yeah. If I tell them, please don't be hindered by lack of resources, they cannot think like that. I mean, there is lack of resources, I can't tell them no, for the next one hour, don't think you have any shortage of resources. So you really have to, you know, you have to make common meaning between the terms that we are using with the real life experiences of people. And you have to at some point of time, shared the common, you know, nomenclatures, and things like that. And so the conversations have to be different. What is the change that we are aiming for? How was everybody engaging in that change process? These are deeper things to be done, and that I find maybe a corporate can learn from a Panchayat or a Panchayat leader.
Deepak Menon 21:08
And that was my follow up question. I'm glad you spoke about it. Assuming you would get a consulting assignment with a corporate that is willing to use your experiences working with Gram Panchayats How would you go about differently now, having learned all new things, or working with Grama Panchayats?
Sonali 21:27
Nice question. One is, I think, Panchayat body or a Panchyat leader is very immersed in his or her environment, right? I am not aloof, I'm not sitting in a world complex, right? I live in that village, I make plans for that village, I here I meet people every day on the road, etc, and all that. So I think that immersion, right for us, as people, if we are working in corporates is very critical. It has to be we have to let go, we have to get rid of our boundaries, you know, beyond this wall, there is this village or beyond by a department, that there's something else etc. So to understand everything, you know, a lot of conceptual knowledge is used, I think a lot of lot more of experiential thinking experiences, just getting there out there understanding, you know, and getting richer by that, that some I feel in the corporate world that is now needs to be done. I think we have to see how we can push those boundaries and engage with people, not only from the hierarchies, not from departments, but as people and I think we will discover something very different. That's what I would do.
Deepak Menon 22:36
Sujatha, many of these examples that Sonali is relating to in the world of OD that shift from diagnostic od to dialogic OD is also taking place. Right? So what what are the parallels that you're seeing between the work that Sonali has been doing and what she's learned from working with grassroot organisations, democratic structures, and also the work that you're seeing also happening globally around dialogic OD.
Sujatha Rao 23:03
So I think a couple of those points are very, very strongly anchored in the dialogic od process, rather than the more traditional diagnostic one, which is I'll go I'll find out what was wrong and then build a charter and then work towards it. So now we also spoke about generative image, right. So when she was talking about this visioning exercise, this vision, exercise doesn't happen overnight, through conversations through small group people come together, they begin to think about what this organisation could be like, right. And that takes a long time. I mean, even when we think about what we want to do in our own lives, can take a long time to figure this out. Right. And a lot of this is anchored in stories, they are anchored in the everyday language of people, rather than, you know, this theoretical conceptual language, which itself people may find quite difficult to relate to it and because they don't relate with it, they don't engage with it. So it becomes a very dysfunctional cycle of, you know, disengagement, right with the whole process. And so, the essence of dialogic od that Sonali is talking about in reference to a Gram Panchayat. I think a lot of work today emerging in that space. Generally just referring to work that's been done by people like Bob Marshek or Gervase Bushe and others are telling us that the change management processes that we should be looking at today should be those that are better suited for complex open, you know, adaptive systems and not necessarily thinking about it as these techno rational processes, right, like I come and I'll straighten the ship and go away. So these things are very what Sonali is pointing out are real life case studies of how dialogic od actually is starting to take place, and I think there's a lot of our learnings from there for corporations, because there is still a tendency to be output and outcome bound, which are quite measurement oriented as opposed to emergence oriented, right? Let's hear what people feel and think and build on that generatively. Through story,
Sonali 25:19
this emergence bit, you talked about Sujatha. I've even had our partners who are civil society organisations, not feeling the need for this emergence. Because, you know, for all of us, the village institution is a recipient. Right. And even here, I have had people saying that if you have to get a concurrence from Panchayat to work, then we sign an MOU, because you want them to sign an MOU. It's basically, again, I mean, you have a right to decide whether you want to work with us, otherwise, you don't want to work with us, we should not work with you. So the process of signing an MOU for us starts with these individual conversations, because we want to talk to people, we want to understand, you know, and then meaningfully engage in this later conversation on the MOU. This process for us takes two to three months, even because you're talking to members, you're talking to citizens, we're talking to frontline functionaries, like teachers, etc. And here also we have told to do it in one month. Yeah, we know the Panchayat and we just carry on with it. And then we saw the process as such, just to you know, even the appreciation of process by development organisations, I would say is not that strong.
Sujatha Rao 26:36
So in newer approaches to change management, and certainly in the newer approaches to OD, are you also sensing that, if we want to go down the route of more stable change, or to have people engaged with this process throughout the beginning stages may be a lot slower, and sometimes deliberately so before one can actually understand the speed with which the change can actually happen. Right. So there's this, do you find yourself? Sonali, have you? I mean, you mentioned it briefly. And in patience to get on with it, when actually you're getting on by being quite slow in the beginning, having these conversations letting emergent thoughts come in involving more people in the dialogue? And does that then result in perhaps greater speed of acceptance or movement at a later stage?
Sonali 27:34
So yes, and no as in, you know, different people have different definitions of movement. Right? So what is action to me is yes, if you and I start thinking differently, to various conversations, it's huge action for me, or somebody else. If I'm talking about a corporate, you know, implementing some particular scheme, or a suggestion scheme, etc, is action, or a Gram Panchayat, constructing a Soak Pit, which takes a day’s action. So I think we cannot sort of we cannot negate that part of action also, you know, otherwise, a whole host of people don't see the sense of movement. And for them to be engaged in the process, we have to embrace all definitions of movement. So even in panchayats, and I think it applies to corporate, you need to have those quick wins, we call them quick wins. So you need to have the right from the beginning, something or the other, which can be visibly seen by people. And when they see it visibly, then they also feel confident. So as OD practitioners, I think we have to embrace both definitions of movement.
Sujatha Rao 28:50
So that's the question I want to really ask you is about what changes you have seen and to what extent in your work with GPS, have you begun to see GPS you know, develop their own capacity to sustain themselves right in the direction that they have set out towards? So, what are these changes that you have been able to see and other any lessons from there that we can take to our understanding of building organisational capacities in general right towards looking at themselves and their development in a more sustainable holistic sort of naturally developing ways.
Sonali 29:32
what changes the changes I see from three to four lenses? One is like we just talked about how individual members or leaders are actually undergoing change. So you can see the transformation at the individual level. You We also do the tracking because everybody like you said, no, there has to be some checklist and tracking. So we have, we track how Panchayat as an institution is changing, are the meetings happening regularly are the decisions in the meetings happening with consensus, very straightforward things like are the records being kept, because they are finally also a public institution, government and they are accountable, they receive government money. So, even the infrastructure the way it is kept and the records which are kept, how transparent it is. So, we saw there are changes at the way the Panchayt as an institution functions, its own systems processes, and also how democratically it's functioning within Is there a person a lower caste also talking as much as the dominant member, etc, this kind of those kinds of things? Are they understanding their identity better? So, we track that. And then the third part, which is what most people are interested in is the tangibles, as they call it, you know, has the water system improved. So there have been goals like the Panchayt commits to the citizens that for all minor repairs, we will not take more than 24 hours, is that happening? Those kinds of changes happened, the input distribution to farmers, it used to happen from the block, and it would be quite haphazard, the Panchayat made a list of farmers and what are their land size? And what are the requirements and based on that the entire input distribution was done. So there are tangible changes, which are many I mean, which, you know, you can start with the form some goals, and after that it's like spirals, because the Pachayat already has the funds, and now it is using its funds to actually effect those changes. So this is a third kind of, you know, change. And the fourth, which I would say something that we haven't managed to do as much and we would like to work more on is how qualitatively the relationship with the citizens at large is changing. So from the mandatory for Grama Sabha as to actually citizens being co opted in the structures of the Panchayt, to citizens coming to panchayats, almost, at any point of time to give their suggestions to Panchayats opening library, so that citizens can come and chit chat, etc. So that relationship know can be, it can be a formally mandated relationship, or it can really move to a much more flowing kind of thing. But the last one, we have to work forward on a to see to say, how do I say, you know, evolving, I feel, creating some successes in, some projects doing very well, like when we worked in Jharkhand, and some 10-15, panchayats really started doing a very good job, people could see the change, and Jharkhand is one of the states that is very low in the devolution index. So it started creating the ripple effect, and with that, two things happen, there's a peer to peer learning, which is a bit more, obvious thing to happen. The second thing which happens is the stature of panchayats starts increasing in the eyes of citizens. And therefore, when the next elections happen, the kind of people who are entering the GPS is of a different quality. And, once we I think two or three such rounds of good quality people coming in, then automatically things are going to shift quite substantially, then they start operating closer to what the constitutional mandate for a Panchayat is,
Deepak Menon 33:14
I'm really, very heartened by what you said about in Jharkhand that this has started creating the ripple effect. Because if you do a little bit of intervention, and that intervention, creates visible change on the ground, once you were able to create the visible change on the ground, you are then in a position to step back, and allow other leaders to come and better leaders to come and fill the space and it becomes a domino effect. No, yeah, I think the same thing can be applied in corporate as well. You know, if you look at a larger organisation, instead of going from a very top down approach, if they see change, working in smaller teams, and create changes in smaller teams, you could see that ripple effect playing itself out in the larger organisation where visible change is happening and other teams are wondering, you know, what, how can this team working in the same environment, they are able to produce better results than we are? And that gets everybody curious and interested on how do we take those learnings and try to implement in our teams. So in that sense, your examples every case study, or how I would say small interventions can create big change in large large systems
Sonali 34:30
and Deepak you've put it very nicely I think, there are also the successes will have to be defined in these layers itself, not just in achievement of those goals, but how individuals are started thinking differently or how they're as a collective they are, they are reaching out to each other differently. And the what we call is tangibles, etc and how they are actually interfacing with the larger ecosystem. So in corporate We have a tendency to only look at the third know, what is the milestone that they have reached, but I think if you do all the four, then everybody will be talking a different language. And that is actually the so the way we define success also could change them. And then you will when you interact with that team, right, the team itself will look different and talk different, and it may be, you know, some sort of face where people are being quite different from the rest of the organisation, and can be learned from.
Sujatha Rao 35:31
Yeah, and I think one of the things that this experience with GP points out to us, he said, There is a lot of power, thinking about organisational design at a team level, right? I mean, these are 25 30 35 people that Sonali was represented, you know, talking about as this unit of change. So there is a lot of power in smaller units of change, that can then you know, bring about larger change within organisations themselves. So it fits in at this sort of this miso level, right? It's not necessarily I'm going to work only with individual change, or I'm going to work in order to change of the entire organisation, but I have a much more robust, but sort of, you know, meaningful set of individuals who are not innocent recipients of change, but co creating the change, right. And that's a far more powerful way of thinking about change and design of an organisation. Because if that team design works, in the same environment, can somebody else look at it and say, what changes do we need to make for our team? And how can that work? So I think that's a useful one to look at is just the size of this unit of change that we can work with.
Sonali 36:46
And then you can think of how to expand that prize. Right? I mean, because if that team behaves or does different things, then how do you enrol and, you know, co opt other members? And
Deepak Menon 36:59
Sonali you've seen a lot of corporate leaders, you have seen a lot of social sector leaders and a lot of GP leaders now. Are there any particular attributes of a GP leader that stands apart from the rest of the leaders?
Sonali 37:13
I think there are some traits that are common to successful leaders, irrespective of you. You have to be really clued on. Yeah. You know, and I don't want to use the word politically savvy, I think the word clued on is better that you understand your environment, you understand the pulse of people, there is also how to enrol people, right? I mean, and then when you talk, no, Deepak I'm remembering this person called Khamkya ji He is one of the leaders of Panchayat in Jharkhand, extremely soft spoken person, but is able to, you know, draw people has a strong sense of integrity, and able to draw people and you know, just by the sheer understanding of work, he does what he does, and also continuously meeting people, he is able to create an image where, you know, nobody wants to fool around, but is very happy to work with him. Also, you know, you so I'm just thinking that just being able to think the word Pulse is important. And we I mean, well, he has a very deep understanding of the work he does, which I think applies to any of us who whichever field you're working in, I mean, that is more about you know, commitment to your, your own thing. So the only characteristics which are across right, I mean, a good organisation a corporate leader, has to be able to engage with people.
Deepak Menon 38:43
The word that I really liked apart from pulse is How to Enrol people. I think at a leadership level in fairly hierarchical structures, one gets the impression that the power comes from the title, whereas enrolling is a very democratic process is you know, I'm doing something here would you want to be part of this, it's almost an by invitation.
Sujatha Rao 39:08
I think there's a lot to be learned from OD work in particularly complex spaces, which are political which also have things like corruption and you know, power which is systemic power, caste based power, gender based power, all of these things. And if you're still able to bring changes in those spaces, using some methods then those methods are worth considering for other organisational spaces that got justice complex, but even those that are less complex than this and one should be able to see how to make that change. So for me that's that's a very positive learning from the Sonali's experience with od work with with the Gram panchayats.
Deepak Menon 39:50
I think for me the process of change that or change intervention that's Sonali is worked upon. is brilliant, to be able to first go with the only lens, or typical OD lens, and then along the way, understand that this is a different system, it operates on different principles, they engage differently, and to drop the old OD process mindset and then come from a very bottom up approach. I think, for me that not only will work in GPs, but also work in other kinds of institutions as well. And for me, that's the biggest, biggest learning for me from this conversation.
Sonali 40:25
I've just really enjoyed this conversation helped me process and articulate and also the I like your method of continuous linking how what we can do outside the rampant jet with the corporate sector and then coming back to it, because basically the connection between formal and informal systems right, and how much what we can do from with each other. It's been very interesting. I have to thank you both for inviting me here and for this conversation,
Sujatha Rao 40:53
More power to you Sonali and to your organisation and I hope your invitation for others to join in this process is heard and the more people who join you in this space and in the kind of work that you do.
Sowmya 41:12
Thank you for listening. That was Deepak and Sujatha talking to Sonali Srivastava, the founder and CEO of ANODE Governance Lab. You'll find the resources referred to in the episode in the show notes with more information at our website www dot workwisepod.com We'd love to hear from you. Comment on the website or write to us at Hello at workwisepod.com. Credits goes to Sanjali Ranjan for the cover art and Derek Clegg for the intro and outro music, today's episode mixed and edited by Prashant Venkatesan production support from me Sowmya Karun. Don't forget to subscribe to the workwise Pod on your favourite podcasting platform.
