Reframing our Work Reality through Appreciative Inquiry

In this episode, Deepak and Sujatha speak to G. Viswanath, an organisational development coach and learning facilitator, about Appreciative Inquiry. Often, problem-solving approaches only focus on what is wrong, or what is not working. Appreciative Inquiry (AI) instead takes a positive and enabling approach to individual and organisational growth, grounded in an abundance mindset. Vish, Deepak and Sujatha share three stories recalling their experience with Appreciative Inquiry, exploring the potential as well as the challenges associated with an AI approach to human and organisational growth.

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About G. Viswanath

Pic: G. Viswanath

Vish has always enjoyed his work as an OD consultant, Coach and Learning facilitator. His core purpose at work is to help people realise their true potential - or at the very least acknowledge that there are umpteen ways in which this can happen, provided they are willing to experiment. His beliefs are founded on his own personal experience of change, as well as his interactions with over 15,000 participants over his lifetime.

Vish works with Top and Senior management from large MNCs, such as Airbus, Philips, SAP, CISCO, Oracle, and Unilever, to mid sized firms to start-ups. He has also worked with many International NGOs and Educational institutions.

Having facilitated over 700 workshops in different settings, sectors and 12 countries, Vish brings with him eternal optimism, and at the same time deep empathy for his participants / coaches - always acknowledging that change takes time, conviction, and patience.

His consulting work over the past 29 years, has taken him to 12 countries including Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Ireland, Dubai, Thailand, Philippines, Bangladesh, Hong Kong, Kenya, Rwanda, and the US.

Resources

Vish’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/viswanathgopalakrishnan/

Transcript

SPEAKERS

Sujatha, Deepak, Vish

Deepak  00:00

I first encountered Appreciative Inquiry, maybe seven, eight years back when I first encountered AI as part of my coaching course, learning to become a coach and things like that. I was astounded by how different it was from what I had come to internalize, which is the problem-solving approach that I had come to internalize and had prided myself on being able to solve complex problems, right. And it was such a jolt for me. And I would say, a new path emerged because of that emotion in appreciative inquiry. And at that time, it used to be called AI. Now, AI refers to something else completely. I think the old school is still call it Appreciative Inquiry, AI. Of course, the new AGI people do not know what AI only AI means, okay. And this means I can give a small introduction about rich but the green thing about wishes that I met wish, through my Buddhism, both are part of the same Buddhist Sangha NSE, mice, him as one of my Buddhist mentors. So, I have doubts about Buddhism, I ask questions, but vision I have been conspiring to talk about appreciative inquiry for some time, which has been working in the space of organization development for the past 30 years. And his blog in India evolved internationally supported international clients supported corporate supported nonprofits. He is on the board of two or three NGOs as well based out of Bangalore apart from work, he is also how many cats and dogs do you have we chatroom, a forecast for forecasts and for dogs. So, we might hear some of them in our call today. And he is someone who lost his cricketing career, because he's about to get selected into the Ranji team in Tamil Nadu because he bought the admission to iron band and that's the only thing I'm jealous of your wish that of your cricketing career. So, I'm so proud to talk to you wish and as usual friend and collaborator, co-conspirator whom I love working with, Sujatha Rao. Welcome both of you to the Workwise Pod.

Vish  02:21

Thanks. Thanks, Deepak. That was a nice introduction. And I think on the cricketing front, I must say you don't need to fit feel that jealous, in the sense that I think there was a little gap between where I was and you know, where I could have played for the state. So, it wasn't as simple as you know, I just gave it up so that I could join I am Bangalore. So nevertheless, I think it was, it was a nice way to think back about, you know, about those days. And I think a lot of my experience and my belief in VI and positive psychology and all of that also rests in some of the sporting world that I was deeply immersed in.

Deepak  02:58

Thank you, Michelle.

Sujatha  02:59

Thank you, Deepa. Thank you Vish, so excited. You know, I'd be telling you how excited I am about this conversation around appreciative inquiry. And so glad that you're here with us today. So just for the benefit of our listeners, I just want to talk about how the conversation will flow today. We'll begin by providing a broad overview, a broad sort of guiding definition about what is appreciative inquiry. And I'm going to ask Vish to do that in a minute. But you know, the heart of appreciative inquiry is in storytelling. It is the stories that we tell you know about ourselves the story that we tell about others the story that we tell about the world that we live in. So today, in our conversation, we are going to be telling you three stories of appreciative inquiry. Each of us will tell you one story, Deepak will kick start the storytelling session by telling us his experience of appreciative inquiry with individuals and teams in coaching environments. And then we'll pause and ask, what do we learn from this? And what can we understand about AI? And then Vish will take us through his experience of appreciative inquiry in organizations and organizational settings. And again, we'll do some reflections after vicious recounting of the story. And then finally, I will talk to you about my AI experience with and in communities. And then again, we can have a little bit of reflection after that. And the idea is really that as we take you through three different levels of appreciative inquiry at the individual and team levels and at organizational levels and at the level of larger ecosystems and communities, be able to unpack some of the ideas behind AI, but also some of the challenges that go with AI and I don't think any of us here are I'm not going to sort of see this through rose tinted glasses, but just also to sort of look at both the potential as well as some of the challenges associated with AI. So, to get the ball rolling, which could you set the context for us by briefly describing or talking about what is appreciated?

Vish  05:18

I think my first encounter with Appreciative Inquiry was in 2010, I attended a two-day workshop in Mumbai organised by some of the professional members of the Indian society for Applied Behavioral Science. And since I was a professional member, myself, I was curious about what this animal was about, what was this kind of work that was being offered as a learner in that sense of the field of ABS, I thought I should attend this session. And for me, what stood out in those two days, and I'm not therefore saying that whatever else happened in those two days was unimportant. I'm just focusing on one aspect of what happened in that two-day event was that on the second day, post lunch is normally a difficult session, the facilitator, you know, said that, why don't I read out a poem to all of you. And so she read out this poem. And then she invited one of the participants, we were about 20 odd people 2021, to read it out, again, read out a second time. So someone volunteered, and that happened. And then she said, okay, in the next 20 minutes, I would like all of you to write poetry, whatever comes to you. And immediately many of us, you know, turned around, looked at each other. And we were kind of completely puzzled. What do you mean, write poetry? I haven't read poetry for years ago, I was that left brained person who didn't much care for poetry, I still don't, what am I going to do writing poetry. And then she reassured us, she said, Look, don't worry about the fact that it has to rhyme every you know, every second sentence, or blah, blah, blah, whatever. She said, don't go by all those roots. Right? Whatever comes to you. I think the whole all of us, while we were there, as learners, and so on, I think we said, okay, let's give it a shot. I mean, what's the worst that can happen? We'll write some bad poetry. That's all that anyway, we are. Very, we know that. That's what we are capable of. So we will produce what we are capable of. And then at the end of 20 minutes, she said, she just invited the group again to say, Okay, why don't all of you read out what you'd have, and somebody volunteered promptly. But what was amazing was that all 21 produced some absolute, absolutely fabulous poetry, which was deep, it had tremendous meaning, it brought us to tears at times. And more than anything else, I could speak for probably anyone in the group, I was shocked about what I had written. I mean, I did not sit on judgment on my own and say, Oh, it's not as good as somebody else, or whatever, I found, I'd actually written something very, very meaningful. And this was coming from very, very kind of, you know, deep place, some things which are, you know, buried deep, deep, deep down. So I think that experience told me that what this methodology, what this philosophy, what this practice seems to have, is the capacity to take something out of us, which we ourselves did not know existed, and something that had potential that had strengths that had, you know, a lot of positive possibilities for the future. And come the next year, I went off to UK to attend another five day foundation for some appreciative inquiry. And I remember on the way back in the flight, actually, I wrote my second poetry. Now, that again, was very surprising to me. But what I realized was that, obviously, if you have been able to do it once, then you immediately, you know, have some confidence that you can do it a second time. Well, the story kind of stops there. There was no poetry written after that. But I'm just letting you know that this is the kind of power that AI has. And what AI does very beautifully is to keep focusing on the positive to keep focusing on what works. So positive doesn't mean insanely positive, or you know, madly positive about everything without a reason. I think the word inquiry in Appreciative Inquiry itself tells us that there is a possibility of inquiring into what is it that works? What is it that works for me? What is it that works for people? Or what is it that works for Sujatha could be three totally different things. Now, without inquiry, one cannot assume that what works for me works for someone else. And that I think is where the beauty of AI is that we don't start judging others based on our own experiences, but that we live with what others experiences our other clients’ systems are. This also tells us that, you know, in the practice of organization development, when we are moving from system to system, we really have to look at what works there. And that I think are the those are I think the nuances of culture that we begin to appreciate as we kind of use AI as practice in our work with organizations. I think AI is not blindly positive. It's not one of those future looking things which has no basis. In fact, AI is strongly grounded on what has worked in the past. It doesn't mean that you know, you can't have a future which is very different from what you did in the past. You can But you use what you already know, as you know, tools of change, and you use those to build whatever future you want to want to build. So I think there is a lot of wisdom, a lot of power in the use of AI. And as Sujatha was saying, AI is grounded in stories, stories, the narrative. And which also means then that the listener, that is the person on the other side, and if you take yourself as an organization, development consultant, external or internal, then I think it's important to let people talk and listen very carefully to what has worked, which they themselves may or may not be aware of. And that's the beauty of, you know, the narrator and the listener, the listener can contribute a great deal to what the narrator is actually saying, because the narrator may or may not even be aware of the kind of energy, the kind of power that they are actually bringing, and the kind of belief the kind of values they hold. All of these, you know, gets unpacked only through storytelling. And that's what I think AI helps bring about, just by the fact that it is inquiry, and, you know, being able to appreciate not so much from the point of view of appreciation the way we understand it, but more from the point of view of value as well, you know, what is this person valued? Why did this person take a particular approach and not a different approach? Or why did this person wait this long, while they could have done it earlier? So every one of those things, no matter what consultant size from a person looking at the system from the outside, you could always say, for this could have been done earlier, that was, you know, somebody failed to do something, which could also be partially the truth. But I think, enquiring into why did this person delay that action also tells us a story, which is perhaps valuable, and very often gets overlooked at times. So you know, the typical corporate thing of Don't, don't tell me how you're going to do it, just tell me that you've done it. I don't care how you do it. But I want to know that it's done. I don't think it's a very good way of I mean, an appreciative inquiry would not approach the system that way. And then, of course, the narrative then goes on to, you know, corporate organizations and managers saying that, well, I don't have time for all of this. I don't have time to listen to all your stories. But AI practitioner would say, well, that's where the answers are. So let's just listen to those stories. So that's a brief overview of AI more in a narrative style rather than in, you know, in a structured fashion, but I hope that it sets the context for us to move ahead. And as we listen to both Deepak and Sujatha, as well, I think we will get a broader idea.

Deepak  12:25

I'm often reminded of what you said about that there are many truths, not just one, and my own experience of first witnessing appreciative inquiry, and then trying to use appreciative inquiry in my coaching practice. And at that time, I was also working somewhere was a little startling, both for myself and for my clients. And for my team, I found that I was reminded of this Japanese movie Rashomon, when I first when I was looking at what many truths, one incident has many stories, possible stories. And when I first started coaching, I was taken aback how this question of what smoking were do startled my clients, I would have assumed that it would have been easy to answer that, because they're always talking to ourselves about how we are our other side and things like that. But in many times when clients would come up with problems that come off things, challenges or aspirations, in the course of conversation, this question of what's working well, what have you used in the past to solve a problem? Something like a problem similar to this was often met with silence. And that means I had to learn them to keep quiet rather than not because we perhaps as human beings, and human systems and organizational systems, haven't asked that question enough, because they've continuously been told to not be very proud of ourselves not to look at and our strengths, always look at what's not be talking good about yourself, be humble. So this, it startled my clients. And that startling startled me as a coach when initially, I started off. And secondly, I remember a time when there was a team meeting, and I was working there, and it was a team off site. And I recognize the patterns that we all of us, were exhibiting individually, and as a team, of talking about what is not working and complaining about what is not working in our work lives in the organization that you're working with and the team that you're working with. And although the team was perhaps well bonded, still there was this constant, nagging in a sense helplessness also, perhaps. So in that off site, I first asked that question before we go on what's working, let's ponder on what what's not working, let's ponder on what's working. And maybe I was untrained, maybe I was new and raw to appreciate inquiry, but I realized that everybody was uncomfortable with that question. And I could see people struggling with thing with it, to answer it, too many of them gave superficial answers. Many of them are waiting till the next question popped up, which was what is not working. And I as a facilitator, I was part of the team. The Team Leader didn't know how to proceed with that awkwardness. So my own initial experience, and that I wanted to bring that story out in this conversation is just because one is talking about what's working well are about strengths doesn't mean that conversation is necessarily an easy conversation and is a facilitator for perhaps there is a certain learning and grounding that one has to do even to pose that question, and to be able to receive inputs. And now of course, since I've been using for the past five or six years, it's gotten a lot better. But I can imagine how a beginner or a new person who is just acquainted with AI, will also struggle. And I think you make a very good point that the bulk, which is that I think, in terms of group facilitation, in particular, I think the group has to be sort of primed slowly into that question. And in the course of a conversation, suddenly, if you're, you know, shifted 180 degrees, groups, and individuals are not ready for it.

Vish  16:29

The second thing that I have noticed is that, you know, in this in today's context, both in whatever world, it doesn't matter whether we are in not for profit or not for profit, or any other kind of, you know, organization, I think the it's, it's called the gravity effect, you know, we are all constantly pulled down with what's not working, rather than being able to fly upwards towards where we want to go, the way we want to go, I think is to do with our dreams, aspirations, which many of us in our own. Growing up, nobody asked us those questions. And it was thought of as being perhaps a little arrogant, a little, you know, thinking too much about yourself, kind of thing, be humble, just be a normal human being, don't try to fly where you may get hurt, you may get burnt, etc. So therefore, I think we have also carried that down perhaps, to the next generations. But things are changing. Without doubt, we ourselves have found AI and found the value of it, I'm sure others will have a much greater experience. I mean, experience it more in, you know, in day to day living as well. You're an experienced fish

Deepak  17:30

in organizations of implementing AI.

Sujatha  17:33

Let's just start off with something that Deepak said, and you responded, it's a question for both of you actually. Sometimes it may be easier to have one on one conversations with individuals that we are able to move the gaze from, what's not working, you know, what's, you know, the sense of gravity that Vish was talking about right, like pulling us down, and start at least a conversation about let us look at what is working in your life. And, you know, there's ways of doing that. But we have, say, individual conversations with five people. And then we put the five people together in a tea right or in a group, and then attempt to have a similar AI conversation with them. In your experience, is that enough of preparation, enough of you know, creating the feed fish, like you would say, creating the sort of energy before to start group conversations anchored around AI? Or, you know, there are other socio cultural factors that prohibit us from exhibiting and being our true self in public spaces? Right. You know, we do self-censorship, we are very concerned about how others see us. There's this this whole socialization process you were just discussing about not wanting to brag or not wanting to talk about, but is there a way by which one can prep a group differently or, you know, alike, to how one could have one on one conversations with AI?

Vish  19:06

I think for me, as a person who grew up in group facilitation, and then came to individual coaching later, my experience of it has never been that I've had to prep people individually. Because often for me, the coaching follows the group work rather than the other way around. That's just the way that my work progresses. But I find that you know, things like the appreciative interview, for instance, I mean, it just opens up the whole field immediately, almost within the first one hour, one and a half hours, people are completely primed to a very different way of engaging with, you know, with each other. So I that is one the other things that I was reminded of the very core premise of AI, which is that often we say that show it to me and I'll accept it. So for me seeing is believing. But AI heads in the opposite direction and says believe it and you will see it. So for me, I think that's what I go in with as far as groups are concerned, and I think that's very critical where AI is concerned and to be an AI practitioner, I think you have to believe it and will happen, to what extent is obviously not in our control that's in the control of whatever but just believe that here is a group of people they will make the best use of their time is something that one has to constantly believe and I feel that it has never really not worked. In a sense it has worked even in difficult circumstances. Yeah, Deepak Menon

Deepak  20:29

use a word appreciative interview, what is appreciative interview.

Vish  20:33

So we what we do is typically, I mean, it doesn't matter how large the dupe is really speaking. So it's just a paid interview that we start off with. And in the paid interview, the focus is on the interview, which means that you interview me, I interview you back into, so it's not a conversation. It's not a casual conversation that we're having, trying to get to know each other. But I'm actually interviewing you about your strengths about what works for you what you're extremely good at? Why do your friends love hanging out with you? What are the nice things that your children say about what your schoolmates or classmates, whatever, you know, what, what are the kinds of things that people seem to say about you, and what do you also appreciate a great deal about your insight. And often I give examples of things that I do on a day to day basis, which is very small, which is very tiny, it's not an award winning activity, but I feel extremely proud and happy that I do it. Now, these are not things that I would be putting on my Facebook or you know, Instagram and shouting to people, but I feel very good about it. But here is an opportunity for me to share this with another willing listener. And this is an activity which completely it kind of brings tremendous amount of intimacy between the two people, because they've been able to share some things about themselves, which are so called strings, values, etc. Without any hesitation without feeling that I'm bragging. Without feeling that you know, what will the other person think about me without feeling judged? I think that's what this interview is able to bring about. And I found that that's a fittingly good way to get started with any group. Because already you're starting off. And what it does is it establishes the fact that okay, what we're trying to inquire what you're trying to dig into is the positive? And how much can we do it? How broad can it be? How deep can it be? So everybody is very thrilled, because obviously all the, you know, 16 people in the room or 32 people have grown, everybody's been talking about their strengths. And I mean, who doesn't like to talk about their strengths, right? And with a willing listener? Why not even more, so

Deepak  22:32

I want to bring Sujatha in so that along with your corporate experience, you also done a lot of work with communities and educational systems. And you've been an avid Appreciative Inquiry practitioner for some time. What has your experience been using AI?

Sujatha  22:48

So I'm gonna save my community story for last because I want to hear wishes organizational story first, I think I really want to draw on Vish’s experience here.

Vish  23:05

we have Sujatha being her humble self. So I actually made a few notes because I thought Janet will be a little shorter and a little more crisp, more aware of that we should be spending. I mean, the story can be taken take half an hour for Android to take six, eight minutes at best. I think the first thing that occurred to me was that it took a while to get this organization is not for profit based in Bangalore, to actually embark on this journey. And what I had proposed to them was basically to say that Look, why don't we work on what this business of strengths is in our individual strengths? We talk about it, but how do we actually use it in the organizational context? And how do we do it in a structured way, obviously. So since I had been familiar with the Gallup Strengths Finder since 2002, and I had also not only taken the tests, but also offered to coach individually many people over time, there were many organizations that I also worked with. So with all that organizational experience, I felt that this particular NGO would benefit a great deal, understanding their individual strengths, and then looking at the collective what is the team collective of all the strings that in 14 people, what does it look like? So I think after about three or four years of persistent sort of knocking on the door, finally, they said that, okay, let's get started with this. So they all took the test. And then we met in November of 21, in a very nice Training Center. And we spent two and a half days going through this process of understanding strengths, essential. So that's where it started. So the content was clear. And what I did was to use AI as the vehicle for you know, taking this content further. So we began with the appreciative interview. And then second day morning, we began to work on, you know, individual strengths, understanding what each of these 34 strengths were about, and then of course responding to how they understood their own strengths and so on and so forth. I think what I would say would have helped this organization a great deal was The fact that he's coming in with a lot of experience and expertise over close to 15 or more years of having spent of having done of not being able to pursue some projects getting stuck halfway, some members making astounding statements in the second coaching session, but not going further after the fourth coaching session. So you know, all kinds of different experiences I had had, so I was ready to, you know, face, whatever was it that would come my way. So as we went through the strengths journey, one of the things that helped a great deal was the fact that the organization was willing to stay on course, for almost a whole year, I mean, every month, you would spend a half day or two half days or one half day, or one full day on understanding strengths more and more and more. And I think one of the things was that all these conversations were obviously had a strongly positive bent, which meant that no strength was better than the other. And that I think, is a great sense of reassurance for any person, particularly younger people from difficult circumstances, who anyway suffered from a certain degree of low self-esteem. So when they began to realize that whatever were their top five strengths, were still strengths, and they will not in any way lesser than somebody else's. I mean, there's just not lesser than somebody else's. I think that sense of reassurance, sense of confidence, sense of self assurance, you know, all of these began to kind of very clearly be visible, because some of these people are, you know, I remember in the initial workshops, one of them, this male participant would say something, he would have some kind of a strange smile on his face, which was almost like saying, Well, that's what you're saying. But that's not how it works. In real life. My real life is very different kinds of things, almost as if I was saying something theoretical, and he was the practitioner sort of thing. But I found that his language, the way that he began to address the group, the way that he began to address his own concerns became far more authentic, which really meant that he was becoming more and more confident of his own his own strengths. And similarly with another woman, participant as well, who definitely had a lot of low self-esteem. And today's, we can see that her whole energy is very, very, very different as of now. So from an organizational point of view, I think they are willing to stay on course they're willing to invest time was quite significant. And I think using appreciative questions was something that was constant, because the question was always directed towards same. Okay, so how does? How does this work for you? How, when has it, you know, work positively for you? And how have you seen it? You know, pan out? I also have good,

Sujatha  27:33

I just have one quick question here, which you may doing this strength based inquiry, that every person in the organization, right, everybody was involved in the strength.

Vish  27:45

So this organization had over 100 people. But we started off with the top management, which is about 13, or 14 people. Sorry, I should have said that context, it included the executive director and her deputy. So they were not out of it. And I think that was very important. And I'll tell you why. So basically, the idea was that each person understands their individual strengths, they also get curious and are now aware of other people's strengths, which means that they could reach out to them for projects, tasks in which they needed the other person's, you know, strength potentially. And then they were to also work on their own role, and how their strengths were playing out in their particular role. So we had asked them to, you know, do a pie chart, where they would say, Okay, I spent so much time on this part of my role, I spend so much time on another part of my role. And each of those slices of the pie, they would look at, how are my strengths manifesting in that part of the world. And that could give them a lot of insights about how well they were using their strengths, etc, etc. At this point, we ran into a roadblock. And the roadblock was that we had invited one of the internal people, one of the 13, amongst them to make a short presentation on taking this forward. And what she did, for some reason, made the whole group very alarmed, in a sense, and they got very worried that whatever, what are we being asked to do? Does this mean the organization doesn't trust what we do? Why do they want us to record in terms of time, and so on, so forth? So we realized that we had run up against a problem because of this. And then what we did was we spoke to the executive director and deputy, and we said, look, okay, let's keep everyone else aside. How about working with just the two of you? Let's spend a whole afternoon, two hours, three hours on working with you, you run through whatever we have asked the group to do. And you tell us, does this work for you or not? If you need to make some changes? We can, but you tell us how it works. So the two of them patiently worked for close to an hour and a half. What we also did was prior to that we shared with them our own role and strengths map and things like that. So we did a little bit of self-disclosure, told them this is how it looks like for us. And then they also did it and at the end of it, they said they said it's fine. I think we can go ahead. I think there's been a little misunderstanding around this. So that was greatly helpful. So in that in that kind of a collaborative step, in that we were able to actually progress further from, you know, from there on. And of course, the fortnightly kind of work also work. I think one of the things that happens with AI and positive psychology and any methodology, which I think generates a lot of energy is that the organization, without any consultation with us, whatever I said, you know, they were going to start introducing strengths into their performance management system. So they started using appreciative questions in the performance management system itself, as a way of both, you know, making it appreciative, as well as saying that, okay, what strengths have you used in the achievement or in the success of this particular project, so people began to see that, okay, my strengths are also associated and are now linked. And it's for me to reflect how I've been able to use those strengths as well. This was, yeah, roughly about a year or so. And then we had a cake cutting for having celebrated one year of work constraints and all of that. But after that pay, again, ran into a bit of a challenge in terms of taking it further, somewhere about three, five months later, they said, Okay, we need to cascade it to the next level, you know, of people in their own organization. But after that, subsequently, I don't think they have done very much work internally, nor have they reached out to us to kind of, you know, take this whole thing further. So I think there are many lessons to be learned. And one of them is that internal organizational champions are required, whether it is AI, whether it is strengths, whether it is OD, whether it is whatever it is, I think the internal champions are the ones who really make things work. Because as external consultants, and here, I'm not saying, you know, whether we are doing this work pro bono, or you're charging for eight, or we are charging an arm and a leg, I'm not saying any of that. I think keeping aside all of that the commercial aspect out of it, internal, I think change agents are the ones who actually tried the change beyond a certain point. And that's the point of time when they have to keep coming back in their own internal spaces to say, but what what's happened to strengths? How can we emulate it? It will space? I mean, if we say that we are a strengths based organization, then why has it not gone beyond the top 25% or top 30% of the organization? So asking those questions, I think is internal job because when it comes from the external, it sounds like as if we want to make it happen slogan, like it's our agenda and not their own internal agenda. But I think from the point of view of even the 20 top management team, their top leadership team, they are all of them between, say 30. And 3530, said in that age range, I think definitely their own bonding as a team was significantly improved. And I would say that it's a kind of a new language, which I think everybody requires, right, I all of us require some reason to be hanging out with each other, whether we are independent consultants, or we are part of the same organization. So I think strengths and AI also provides a day to day language, which I think is very critical is very important. I mean, there are many things. And this is this is definitely one of them, inasmuch as values are a vision, something that binds people together. Appreciative questions, I think it's like every 15 minutes, you can have an appreciative question. So it's not like division, which we'll talk about once in three months. Yeah, so that's a refi book I stuck to the time I think I roughly did, what quick responses to what was most energizing, or what seemed to be the seem to be some inflection point or something that turned things around, or I

Sujatha  33:20

was thinking about this energy questions is that often when we talk about AI, you know, we do talk about the energy that AI brings, which is in many ways, I think people who've been practicing AI will intuitively sense it, but you know, it's there that that energy has a momentum, that's quite different from a typical problem solving approach, right? Where we problematized it and we are saying there's a solution. And sometimes these solutions can be really complex, and you're trying to complicate solutions, trying to project manage them and so on so forth. I know you use the word field, and you have used it before, how do you think when they use the word energy, how does it differ when they talk about it from an appreciative inquiry perspective? You know, what is this field that we often talk about? And how does that differ from you know, the more mainstream techno rational ways of bringing about change in organization? How do you sort of you know, look at that,

Vish  34:19

I can see the transition from my own Bachelor of Science days to maybe even MBA and where I am right now, in that period of time, it was really about are you able to think through this particular subject not only a problem which is quantitative but carry on fitting through the subject and back it and say okay, these are all the various parts and these are you put it together and you know, this is how you kind of then respond to your n term paper or an assignment or whatever. Whereas today, I think, in particularly in the context of organizations, and people working in organizations, we know that they are a bundle of feelings and emotions. And today if organizations are unwilling to understand that or even appreciate that I think you can keep running after process after process, but you won't have fundamental inspirational transformational changes happening. So the way I've experienced this field in AI is, I just want to take you back to the earlier part of the conversation where I talked about that poetry writing business, it was such a jhatka of sorts, you know, just such a shake up, that you say, what's happening here, and as you hear each one's poetry, you're more and more inspired about the diversity of people in the room, though all of us are supposedly HR or supposedly consultants, or, or maybe, you know, living in a larger Inkopolis, kind of. So we all have some similarities there. And yet, we are so different. And similarly, I think when I went to UK to attend the foundational course, I again found that slowly as the days begin, and when you're in an AI immersive process, I think you'll find it difficult to find faults, because you're constantly looking at, you know, what is it that I can make use of what is what is valuable here? What is someone saying, which I've not heard before? But how does that work? You know, the energy is all about learning and saying, How do I do something differently? Or better, rather than sitting on judgment? Or with the mind wrestling with? How can this be so this cannot be so it could not happen? There must be some reason why it's happening there. But I can't do it. And you know, you're not wrestling with all of that. You're basically saying someone has done it. Let me go and understand how that happened. And let me believe that if it happens there, it can happen here as well. So it seems to be a very simplistic proposition at one level. And yet, obviously, nothing is simply things are complex. But the question is, how do we develop that capacity to just be open and listen, and not allow all our existing biases to come and cloud that atmosphere. So maybe that's the field and that's the energy that AI is able to kind of bring about. But like all things energy can just flick your fingers and say, Okay, now energy come no energy to it takes time for it to kind of build up. And as each person in the room is ready to jump into that circle, the sooner they willing to jump into the circle, the sooner you know that energy gets kind of more and more vibrant, in a sense,

Deepak  37:05

out of question. One of my areas of inquiry has been this workshop to workplace transition. And I think Sujatha Rao and I discussed enormous number of hours on this. And how do we move from workshop to a workplace or from a coaching session to a workplace is that how the transition possible or made easier now, for example of the story that you shared? Some of the heartening thing that you said is some of it moved into far more what I would call structure with a performance management system, for example. So some of these methodologies, mood of principles moved into the performance management systems, which are usually difficult to crack, you know, they have certain history in a certain way, it's a little difficult to change that. But the fact that some of this the field did manage to change some of this performance management systems. But how does one go about doing that? How does one start? Do you meet resistance? do you how do you overcome the initial resistance? How the eyes are the skeptics along the way? How would you maintain the energy beyond the initial start?

Vish  38:09

I'm very curious about in this case, you said they also allowed themselves one year, that's one year of reflection on practice, which is rare in organizations to reflect on organizational performance. But what is your experience with that? I'm also inviting you for this is that this workplace workshop to work with transition. How do you are the methods methodology to ease in it basically, is difficult. It's not that easy at all. It's just part of the process is the grind is part of the process. As I said, one definite part of that puzzle is the internal champion. And that actually worked in an earlier not for profit, also that I had done strengths work on. And the moment those internal champions moved for some reason. And I think the first time around, in our case, my colleague, and I think we did not assess or judge the new people coming in and their level of energy as compared to the earlier set. That was an error of judgment. Without I would say it was an error of judgment. And as consultants, we should have come in quickly to say that, hey, this is not working. I think we need to do something different. It's not to replace them, but to just basically support them in in moving ahead with it. I think the second part as far as this organization is concerned, which I talked about in some detail. I think the senior leadership, as well as the top management, all of them were involved right from the beginning. So they were the first level. So in a sense, they did have the sort of thirst and hunger for learning more about strengths and how they could use it because it was directed at them at a personal level. How do I improve my efficacy at work? So then that becomes I'm not going to miss that session. Right? It's very unlikely I'm going to miss that session. But it's definitely not easy. And I would say that we were also not I mean, I don't think it was easy for us to tell the organization that well, but we want to be involved in many more things than we are. They also have a certain rhythm. And like you said, you know, it's definitely not easy. But I think perhaps what is also true is that if we really want to change or transform an organization in a period of six months or one year, the organization would love it. But I think the amount of work it requires that aren't is enormous. And very often, we are not sure they say, mandated to do that level of work. If we do that level of work, they are not ready. They know they can't handle it. So it's a balancing act. And I think maybe we are stuck in a sense with the top leaders, very often, even though there are 12 other people, it's the top leader or leaders in this case to open, if they are not able to move the coin for some reason, then the whole organization has stopped. Yeah, Sanjay.

Sujatha  40:42

Yeah, no, this is a tough one. And I think I feel part of this response goes to also the, the transformative potential of an AI experience, you know, it's it does transform you in many ways. And maybe part of the way of this transference that happens in the organization is maybe also the strength of the transformative experiences that one can facility. I mean, I'm going back to my own first encounter with appreciative inquiry, and this is going back 20 odd years. And I was at that time working with a quasi-government educational organization in Australia, and we were developing educational programs for young people at risk. And one of the programs that we had developed at that time, was a technology program, a certificate program in technology for indigenous aboriginal youth at risk. Australia has a large number of Aboriginal communities, we have decided to work with one particular urban community, and nationally, indigenous communities had much poorer educational outcomes, health outcomes, life outcomes, you know, work outcomes as compared to national averages, right, they were doing much more poorly than the general public. And so the idea was, wouldn't it be wonderful to have, especially in the 2000s, a technology enabled certificate for young people would make them very risk, free for employment, and, you know, sort of strengthen their career opportunity. So that was a program that we decided, and we actually went to the particular community that we wanted to work with. And we started talking to the elders in that community. And he said, This is the program, this, we think, would be of great use to your young people. In fact, you know, even mature age people, and it solves a lot of your problems, right issues around scaling, school dropout, technical knowledge, etc, etc. We did a lot of sort of mailers in the sense, you know, community outreach programs, and spoke about the value of it and etc, etc. And because of the advocacy that we did, and the marketing that we did, we actually ended up with about 100 Odd participants for the program for the first time. And we were thrilled, it was so excited. And we thought, fantastic, you know, you're 100 people. And I remember the program started on a Monday, and they had this big welcome ceremony, well, you know, and introductions, and so on and so forth. On the Tuesday, in the evening, about 22 people had dropped out. And that was an okay with us, because you know, you're working with youth at risk, and you expect that they will be a certain dropout. And you know, this is fed into your program or whatever. And they said, No, that's okay. There's still a lot of people, it's Friday of that week, the week that the program began, we had only 19 participants left. In the program, we had 81 People who had dropped out. So the next Monday, all of us were sitting there completely lost. You know, what happened here, it was a well-designed program, it was addressing their needs, we had done such a good job of advocating it and involving the elders, what happened, as we were talking about, I remember the conversations about how disappointing it is to work with risk youth, and this should have been expected, and maybe we should have expected them to, you know, have more discipline, but they don't, and so on and so forth. Until one person said, You know what we should do? Let's, let's go and talk to the community about this. Right, let's go and meet the elders and see, what is it that has triggered this catastrophic loss of, of students? So that's what we did, we went that we and we met with the elders in the community and some of the you and we started talking about proper expectations of the program, right? We said, Oh, this is such a fantastic program, you're so disappointed that you're not able to make this we just required a little bit of discipline, you know, it's something that the youth have to build on, etc, etc. And this went on for a while, and I still remember this, like a so visually, towards the end of this conversation, one of the elders got up and he said, you know, for the Last, whatever 45 minutes they've been hearing you. And we understand that you think that this program is a really good one to solve our problems, right? But instead of talking about what is not working with our youth can be pause for some time and talk about what is the best of them is that I've had enough of listening to all of you say that they can't do this, they can't do this. They can't do this. But you have not asked us what they can do. And you've not asked us? What is the core essence and identity of being an indigenous Aboriginal? In this urban community? You have not asked us what makes our heart sing. And these were the words he used, like what makes our heart sing? What makes the bloods run through our body? Where do we get our energies from? What do we dream about at night? And you say that you're addressing our problem. And our problem is, of course, like everybody else, we are interested in jobs and housing and clothing. But that's not what makes us sing. Right? You know, for me. And he said, Unless you begin to ask, understand where our energy comes from, you will only see us a school dropouts, and he called it work dropouts, I had never heard anything like this until then, in my life, right. I had never encountered a space where someone presented to me a story that was so dramatically different from the story I had in my own head about that. I was so uncomfortable. It was uncomfortable in jarringly a sense way, right. Like, I couldn't sleep after that, right? It was, what are we doing? It was something I never thought of before his representation. And then he offered us this olive branch. And he said, Why don't you all come to the community for some time and just listen to us, right and listen to our stories. And that's what we did. We went the next week and the next few weeks, and we just spent time there with that you with them in that community listening to their story, and understanding who they are. And we began to understand that what matters to them are very different from what matters to us. Right? for them. It was their deep sense of connection with their land, a sense of ancient history of connection that goes back 1000s of years, right? Like I can trace my ancestry to 40 generations earlier, right, a sense of pride about, you know, the strength of kinship structures that they had, they could talk about hundreds of uncles and aunts and brothers and sisters, none of whom that blood ties, right, but all connected through this relationship, kinship structures and the joy that they felt in their dream time and in their stories and their imaginations. And I think that thought is who they were. And I think for us, it was a realization that although our program was technically sound, it was lifeless, right? It didn't have like, there was nothing in life about it. And that was when I first encountered appreciative inquiry. I had no idea about Appreciative Inquiry, I did not know that that existed. But that elder and that community, I think, made me realize that an appreciative worldview is to step out of a deficit worldview. And I think particularly for community, we are trained to look at communities from a deficit, well, poverty, heavy hair, you know, there's loss of so many things. I mean, I'm not glossing over the despair that communities feel because that is poverty, that is violence, that is gender discrimination, that is loss of opportunities, all of that. But we don't have to keep looking at what they don't have, as a problem to solve. Instead, if we can step back and ask questions about what is it that they value the most right? What is it that they seek in abundance, or what is the life force that they have, whether it is resilience, or whether it is networks, or whether it is Jugaad, or whatever it is that they pride themselves on? And wish you spoke about strengths, right? The pride that you feel when you recognize that you have these strengths in you? I think the lesson therefore, for me is can we shift consciously into those kinds of worldviews from a worldview that trained us to be a world as a problem, you know, and how do we tackle it, and then began this process of strengths in communities. And I think communities do Appreciative Inquiry far more naturally organically on an everyday basis than we perhaps acknowledge or give credit for but I think certainly more than organizations adopt an appreciative inquiry worldview in their everyday lives. I think organizations tend to be much more problems Solving techno rational logical than sensing energies and growth and so on. That's my AI experience of communities. And it's something that I've found very useful to go back to whenever the tendency is there to slip back into what is the problem here that we can solve, just step back and say, what is the abundant opportunities here that they themselves can build on? And I think it's a very tough thing to do. I mean, I failed a lot in doing that. But I think there's it's powerful, being able to think about it. And I think that's one of the great joys of AI. That's my experience Department.

Deepak  50:35

Thank you, Sujatha. That's such a powerful story.

Sujatha  50:38

I think it changed me in many ways to change the trajectory of my life trajectory of my career. So obviously, it was in some ways what this show is magical. It was magical in a in a very different way.

Vish  50:51

I also think you know that it's a story, which also is very humbling in the sense that we, because of our education, and the more education we have, the more we think that we know it all. Then from there, we have a certain worldview, which is completely at odds with what people's experiences are. And in order to actually have 100%, you know, what should I say completion of that five day program rate, that five day program process, you first need to understand where they are. And then no matter what you do, they may be willing to go through with it, because now they know that you understand their context. And that's, I think, a very fundamental principle in all of HR itself. And, for instance, I remember telling a young HR new recruit at an organization, we're telling her that look, you are at the stage, you're going to be asked to welcome candidates to come and sit in the reception while you run around with the resume to one manager to another. I said, so the job doesn't sound like it's very exciting, or you know, it's very inspiring, or whatever. But the one thing that you can do is you can ask the candidate, did you have trouble finding our office? Would you like a glass of water, and I said, that can make a huge change for the candidate, because they will be actually better prepared for the interview. Otherwise, already, they are nervous, they're not sure when they are well dressed, you know, whether they can ask to go to the restroom. So you know, that person is coming in a lot of tension, if you can ease that tension a little bit, makes a big difference, which is the same as saying, Let me enter your world, and help you with your world first, before asking you to you know, enter, enter my world, but brilliant and beautiful story. So I think many, many of us as practitioners, and as consultants, whatever, I think I've had to face this repeatedly, and hopefully learn from it for a while moving on it in whatever

Deepak  52:37

format. So let us story. What I found heartening was the elder invited them to the community and the communities, invite them to come to community sit with them be with them, many times we don't go, we feel that the reason that it not work is because they were not opening. But as we are not opening, have couple of questions that have come our way. And I think that's both the Vichy will and together Dandara workshops can answer both the questions are similar. And last them the first question is the Amelia was, who asked often we see that especially when it comes to corporate workshops, there is a kind of cringe element that people do not want to overcome. Are people afraid that bringing their true selves to that space, exposes them or make them too vulnerable somehow? What can be done to build trust? And the second question is by Krishnan, who says, I think similar, but perhaps coming from the opposite side is that either reason for the increase in energy because of the reduction in negative thought processes in the room in the AI session? You know? So these are the big questions. I think both of you can give it a shot.

Vish  53:50

I think the first one is a very valid question. Because one of the things that organizations I think, don't do a particularly good job is of socializing newcomers into the organization to the point where they feel that they can trust others and others will also trust them, you have to bring people to that point as soon as possible. And that requires actually a great deal of expertise, which most organizations don't have. They may have senior HR people, but that doesn't mean that they have the expertise to make this thing happen. Number one, and number two is how do you translate it I mean, in a 1000 person organization, you're recruiting 80 people hired in 25 people a year, you're not going to meet the HR person is not going to be running around trying to socialize each one of these, which means that then it's a process that has to be institutionalized. I remember doing work on values with one particular business division of Oracle a very long time ago. And they actually began to train their managers and how to help people to understand values, understand their personal values, see the link to the organizational values and so on and so forth. So they actually had a training of trainers and then the training of trainers. All of these were taken domain specialists and they did not agree to do it on their own, because they were very, you know, unsure. They said, No, no, no, we'll work as a pair. And then we'll you know, do these workshops. So we said, look, whatever works for you. This is not this is not some challenge or whatever. This is a very serious business. And in fact, we said that it was It is fantastic that internal people and technical people are doing so called HR training, because then it means that the techie who's joining says, Oh, this is also important is it, I thought it wasn't so important. So that whole integration of that philosophy itself, I think, is something that happened very well there. And hopefully it continues. But I think coming back to the, you know, the cringe element or the reluctance to be open, I think that is something which is the domain of those who work in this field. And it's, whether it is AI or any other methodology, I didn't use AI, for the first 15 years of my work, but yet, I was able to get people to become open. It's not by putting up a slide, or it's not by saying, These are the norms and so on this is this actually happens through the processes that you kind of design the workshop to be. And it's quite amazing how if you know what you're doing, as a facilitator, people also begin to slowly you know, get into that rhythm. And it's not a struggle after a while, initially, yes, it might have been a struggle, even for me as a facilitator, but over a period of time, you realize that you can't force it. And at the end of it, even if six out of 10 people are willing to be open. Okay, so that's how the system responded to you in that particular scenario. Hopefully, next time you meet them, it'll be you know, seven or eight, and slowly that will build but expecting everybody to be equally open equally responsive is, I think, an unnecessary expectation that, you know, we place on ourselves, because people, we don't know what background and what they are coming with. And I think that's something that got beautifully captured in Sujatha story. So yeah, Sujatha very little to

Sujatha  56:46

add to what Vish was saying, I think we recognize that every individual has different degrees of self-censorship and different degrees of wanting to share and not share. But I think as leaders in our organization, as well as facilitators who are processing this are recognizing that we can hold safe spaces as much as possible Invitational spaces, and you know, ensuring that that space feels welcome to you no matter when that clicks for you. It may not happen on day one may not happen on day two, but it may happen day three, post it, right, that you want to share your true self. So I think just keeping ourselves open to the possibility but protecting those spaces as much as possible and Vicious Strike, there are so many processes one can use to be able to do this. And yeah, I think it's also leaders learning to be vulnerable in open spaces, I think can be very powerful. You know, I mean, many leaders think that I always have to have a tough person persona, or, you know, I need to have the answers to all questions. I think some of the most beautiful acts of leadership are to be vulnerable and open and say, I don't know, guys, right? I make mistakes and I to get married and anxious or, or to be able to share your own strengths. Actually, reading quietly is my greatest strength. It's not standing in front of a podium and talking. And yet I do that I think signals that come from the organization can be very helpful for furthering the AI energy. And I think that is another question does when that toxic thing comes down? Yes, absolutely. And I think that can be something that you place attention with. So

Vish  58:25

yeah. And responding to the other question that you know, do negative negativity reduce, because positivity has been increased? I mean, for sure, at any moment, we can't have positive and negative thoughts simultaneously, one can follow the other without doubt. And I think the more the sense of positive or generativity that is there in the room and that individuals experience, the less they want to go away from it. Right, this is such a beautiful field we have created. Why ask, you know, difficult question right now, at this point in time, maybe I'll keep it, I'll hold it, and I'll see what to do with it. But I don't have to necessarily, immediately try and counter it with a, you know, by being the devil's advocate, and, and things like that. But I think the thing that we must, I think recognize whether we like it or not is that there is negativity, there are critics, there are self-appointed critics, there are armchair critics, and there will be critics. And there must be critics also. So that we are able to actually examine to say, so all this is fine. But are we kind of, you know, missing some things? Or are we know unconsciously avoiding asking certain questions, and if those things come up with and how we've got to deal with it. So I think AI in Norway AI or the strengths paradigm, for instance, I think neither of them are saying that. We don't have faults; we don't have limitations. We don't have our own downsides, dark sides, whatever you want to call it. I think the general philosophy with AI your strength seems to be that, you know, be aware of what doesn't work for you and just stay out of that field as much as possible because it doesn't work for you. So why do you want to keep getting there? Why do you want to keep getting into that space? is and then finding it so difficult. And then you come out and complain and this and that. So figure out what works for you and work in that way. And for those that it doesn't work, it doesn't work. That's it. As Harrison Owen says, in open space, he says, when it's over, it's over. Don't try to prolong it.

Deepak  1:00:17

I've been fascinated with the potential the possibility that AI has for an organization, and especially today, with a lot of tech companies, being so left brained in internally analytical in their thinking, I think Appreciative Inquiry does provide a healthy balance for such organizations, there are a lot more valorization of processes problem solving now, than the possibility that AI in creating a positive field over time in an organization, I'm also reminded from, what Sujatha euros you're sharing your story and wishes, stories, if it takes time. It's not linear, it's, it's it takes time. And the organization must invest in it as any other processes, like any other reflection processes, and the main aim is to invest in the process, and not necessarily put a Gantt chart to it. So tell me how many months will become positive? Which if you're positive, that question, or how many times will we make our revenues doubled? Because of appreciative inquiry? I think that's the wrong question to ask. Because these are emergent processes.

Vish  1:01:31

But you know, even as you started by saying that, you know, organizations are largely analytical in nature, I was immediately thinking, that strength of analysis is what they need to use to understand AI. So they understand AI and then are willing to experience it, which is fine. So in a sense, I don't think any of these organizations are, in a way, what should I say, because they are left brained they are naturally or rather, they are, they are not up to doing these kinds of things, or anything of that kind. It's just that they are wired differently. And some others are wired differently, just a matter of them come looking at the concept of it and then willing to go through the experience, whereas people like us are willing to jump into the experience and say, let's see what concept we derive from it, and

Sujatha  1:02:15

changes complex anyway, whether we follow process a or process P organizational change is invariably complex, it doesn't follow the step, a step by step, see no matter how well representative looks in a chart, and I think AI just provides us the opportunity of embarking on change much more joyfully, much more full of life and energy, and asking questions about what works for us. And then building from there, rather than asking questions about what is not working for us, and then attempting to fix that. So I think there's I think that is partly the positive aspect of appreciative inquiry. I think it's just an opportunity to bring a lot more joy into spaces that can feel complex. Vish, thank you. It's been wonderful having que, and I know that we didn't sort of describe the techniques of AI, we didn't, you know, we didn't talk about the principles. Yeah, we didn't say constructionist, and, you know, taken none of that, but those are easily available for people as resources to look at. And I'm sure will provide a lot of links to the conversations that we had. But I think the experience today was really just to talk about the lived experience of AI, and how that can be transformative. So thank you so much for that Vish. I remember, Cooperider, who actually he was working on the thesis of AI had called it an experiment with a humanly significant process, right of social and organizing inquiry. And that line has stuck with me forever, right? It's an experiment. That's what we do with AI. We are experimenting, and that's part of the action research part of AI. But it's an experiment with something that's deeply human. It's not machine. It's not aliens, it's us with our belief systems and emotions and values. And we do this because we want to significantly improve the social and organizing mechanisms with which we come together and to do this in a spirit of sort of co-appreciation, appreciating each other, and modes of questioning and knowing and valuing each other. So yeah, I think somebody has put a chat saying it's not artificial intelligence, intelligence, and that's pretty much what it is. So thank you, Deepak. Thanks,

Vish  1:04:38

Sujatha Rao, I was just reminded of something that I thought I should share in a minute or two when I did this foundational course in appreciative inquiry. In UK facilitators were Jane Watkins, who is kind of seen as the grandmother. If David Cooperider is the grandfather then, Jane Watkins is the grandmother of appreciative inquiry. So she and her colleagues Mate were the two people who facilitated the course. And it is very interesting because my day held the space and the structure and so on. And Jane was the storyteller. So, Jane would go off into a story, you know, in 1993, we were at a Ford Motor Company in Idaho or something. And after a minute or two, you know, Mate would Tapper and say, Jane, I think we need to move ahead. And Jane would say, oh, okay, sure, go ahead. It was such a beautiful pair, you know, one holding the concept and the other, you know, constantly getting on and on into, into storytelling, which itself was a way of teaching all of us that gave these stories are important. So thanks a lot. I think it was great opportunity and pleasure to be talking about experiences around AI. There are many, many others, of course, and you know, even as Deepak was reminding me about open space, and so on, I think there are many, many methodologies, which are, you know, truly liberating and freeing, and not getting a spot and I should know everything, you know, I'm the facilitator, I'm the leader, I'm the person and authority. And I carry this burden. And I think many of these methodologies I really kind of find so fascinating, because I think it allows someone with so called half my potential to also make things happen. So we don't have to, you know, date by or say only these people can make things happen. And it's a process and it's something that someone with the same kind of set of beliefs around AI can do it as well as I can. Yeah, that I think is what is the real power of the philosophy and the process. So yes, looking forward to more AI in in all our lives.

Deepak  1:06:33

And thank you, Vish. Thank you. Sujatha Rao for being part of this Workwise Live episode. It's always lovely talking to both of you all the time. It's even better getting you together to talk about appreciative inquiry. Thank you.

Vish  1:06:49

We'll catch up soon. Yeah, thanks. Thanks, Deepak.

Sujatha  1:06:51

Bye. Thanks, Vish.